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Old 12-28-2011, 09:31 AM   #161
jacobs323i
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Originally Posted by ghettoracer View Post
500 whp must be on race gas. Are you still on stock long block? How much power on 91 Octane California gas and how much boost?

I call BS unless you post dyno sheet.
I left posting on this site with my project, for much the same reason adam has (pei) this has become hpf ground and unless you are running hpf stuff here no one cares, so I have a new site that I posted most of my new info on. My name is the same there so if you google it or 323i turbo both my threads come up on google dang near the top. The reason i do not post my dyno is one the car is either going to get nitrous to spool the turbo faster or I am going to go to a gt 40r for more boost, so why post something that is not done? Second I have a few races planned with people a couple from here so why would i give out the info to my comp before the race? And lastly there was a time that I gave out every bit of info on my project that people asked and all I really got was your lying, it's not possible etc. so why fuel the fire! In the end I do not care who does or does not believe me
So after that to answer your question no I have a e85 setup so I am not running race fuel but instead e85. No I am not on the stock long block, I have a stock cryo treated block, and stock cryo treated head that has been ported, but all lifters, springs are stock, I have upgraded valves. The bottom end is a different story: arrow rods, cp pistons, crank out of a 330i these items were all cryo treated except for the crank if i recall correctly.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:11 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
Jacob's car is an outstanding example of how to go about building a truly custom BMW turbo. Not everything he's done is in this thread...there are other threads, and he doesn't participate online with in-depth technical explanations as much as someone like Neel Vasavada. That said, there isn't BS in what he says. In fact....a lot of times he's a bit too direct for my taste, but that's another topic entirely.

Technique Tuning does have a kit for 325s, and it offers a very direct and affordable way to properly add a turbo to the E46 non-M platform.

If you want to go with something custom, break out your wallet. I'd start with at least $20k in your pocket to cover the hardware, labor, and tuning. Expect it to take in the area of 6 months to get everything completed, from start of consultation to finished delivery of a turn-key car. It can get a lot more expensive and timely from there depending on options and whom you work with.
As usual you hit the nail on the head!
at least 20k to at least mimic what I did but all ready having the pieces to the puzzle in place as I am sure Adam knows with his extensive research and testing, that to get to the point I am now I went through alot of mishaps and mistakes. But nowadays alot of people are forging paths in our platform and the info to do what I did is readily available from people like me Adam and 10-15 other various forum members here. Again yes it all depends on who you work with to get the project done I had issues to the tune of over a year and a half due to the very person you want to contact! But on the other hand if you do alot of the work yourself like Adam does then 20k is a perfect budget.

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Old 12-28-2011, 12:09 PM   #163
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Jake's car.

Nice to see you here, Jake. I tuned this car and can verify everything Jake says. The car is a hoot to drive; we've had lots of fun driving around the dyno in Minneapolis. Its up to Jake to post his dyno numbers, but the thing is strong and reliable.

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MOTEC M600 $3900
An M600 is $4430, not $3900. but you need the advanced functions options, active cam control, data logging & wideband, then you need external igniters. This adds nearly $2500 to the price, so a MOTEC is $6930. And it still lacks the knock control, multi-map and advanced boost control functions that Jake's Pectel has.

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The good news is that you can actually run this engine on a Vipec V88, which is nearly half the price of the M600 box...and doesn't need to have DBW and O2 enabled + wiring harness which add well over $1k to the M600's price. Again...I've worked on cars with M600s on them...and the box isn't usually the most expensive part of the package. Usually guys are adding a CDI8 to drive the BMW OEM coils...which adds another $2k to the price...or you can go with M&W...at about $1600.
I've done over a dozen Vi-PECs on BMW's, and its a good lower-priced alternative. Its not nearly as advanced as the Pectel and still needs the igniters; when you want the level of sophistication that Jake has, the Pectel is where its at. Furthermore, you don't necessarily need a CDI with these motors, even at higher boost. One of the issues with the MOTEC & Vi-PEC is they rely on external igniters, which are often limited to 6A. The Pectel's internal drivers can push 20A, and with aftermarket coils, we have no issues with ignition. In fact, thanks to the longer duration, the inductive ignition actual works better. When we do Vi-PECs, we use custom non-current limited igniters that do the job pretty well.

-Neel
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:17 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Apex Neel View Post
Nice to see you here, Jake. I tuned this car and can verify everything Jake says. The car is a hoot to drive; we've had lots of fun driving around the dyno in Minneapolis. Its up to Jake to post his dyno numbers, but the thing is strong and reliable.



An M600 is $4430, not $3900. but you need the advanced functions options, active cam control, data logging & wideband, then you need external igniters. This adds nearly $2500 to the price, so a MOTEC is $6930. And it still lacks the knock control, multi-map and advanced boost control functions that Jake's Pectel has.



I've done over a dozen Vi-PECs on BMW's, and its a good lower-priced alternative. Its not nearly as advanced as the Pectel and still needs the igniters; when you want the level of sophistication that Jake has, the Pectel is where its at. Furthermore, you don't necessarily need a CDI with these motors, even at higher boost. One of the issues with the MOTEC & Vi-PEC is they rely on external igniters, which are often limited to 6A. The Pectel's internal drivers can push 20A, and with aftermarket coils, we have no issues with ignition. In fact, thanks to the longer duration, the inductive ignition actual works better. When we do Vi-PECs, we use custom non-current limited igniters that do the job pretty well.

-Neel
Hey Neel Good to see you here too! Next time you are in MN dont forget to hit me up! ALso now that I have your attention here what are your thoughts I am planning on making more power! GT40R or nitrous to spool up the turbo faster?
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:34 PM   #165
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Hey Neel Good to see you here too! Next time you are in MN dont forget to hit me up! ALso now that I have your attention here what are your thoughts I am planning on making more power! GT40R or nitrous to spool up the turbo faster?
You know I'll look you up whenever I'm in MNPLS. I am still curious about that turbo you're running. We're maxed out on boost; to make more power we have to look elsewhere. As far as response, before we go the nitrous route we really need to see what's in there; personally I think its better than a lot of turbo E46's we've done.

-Neel
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:02 PM   #166
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As usual you hit the nail on the head!
at least 20k to at least mimic what I did but all ready having the pieces to the puzzle in place as I am sure Adam knows with his extensive research and testing, that to get to the point I am now I went through alot of mishaps and mistakes. But nowadays alot of people are forging paths in our platform and the info to do what I did is readily available from people like me Adam and 10-15 other various forum members here. Again yes it all depends on who you work with to get the project done I had issues to the tune of over a year and a half due to the very person you want to contact! But on the other hand if you do alot of the work yourself like Adam does then 20k is a perfect budget.
I've got to ask...because this can add even more to the price:

What did you do with the OEM ABS brake system? Does it have it's own harness and programming? It won't run without some "help" once you remove the DME.

How did you get the Dash to work? Or was that part of Neel's magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex Neel View Post
An M600 is $4430, not $3900. but you need the advanced functions options, active cam control, data logging & wideband, then you need external igniters. This adds nearly $2500 to the price, so a MOTEC is $6930. And it still lacks the knock control, multi-map and advanced boost control functions that Jake's Pectel has.



I've done over a dozen Vi-PECs on BMW's, and its a good lower-priced alternative. Its not nearly as advanced as the Pectel and still needs the igniters; when you want the level of sophistication that Jake has, the Pectel is where its at. Furthermore, you don't necessarily need a CDI with these motors, even at higher boost. One of the issues with the MOTEC & Vi-PEC is they rely on external igniters, which are often limited to 6A. The Pectel's internal drivers can push 20A, and with aftermarket coils, we have no issues with ignition. In fact, thanks to the longer duration, the inductive ignition actual works better. When we do Vi-PECs, we use custom non-current limited igniters that do the job pretty well.

-Neel
Fantastic info Neel, thanks for taking the time to share this.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:34 PM   #167
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I've got to ask...because this can add even more to the price:

What did you do with the OEM ABS brake system? Does it have it's own harness and programming? It won't run without some "help" once you remove the DME.

How did you get the Dash to work? Or was that part of Neel's magic.



Fantastic info Neel, thanks for taking the time to share this.
Neel worked his magic on the dash! Adam could you elaborate on the oem brake system and not working once you are full standalone.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:36 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Apex Neel View Post
You know I'll look you up whenever I'm in MNPLS. I am still curious about that turbo you're running. We're maxed out on boost; to make more power we have to look elsewhere. As far as response, before we go the nitrous route we really need to see what's in there; personally I think its better than a lot of turbo E46's we've done.

-Neel
I know, and I love my car dont get me wrong. But as I am sure you know you get used to boost quick and want more.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:44 PM   #169
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Neel worked his magic on the dash! Adam could you elaborate on the oem brake system and not working once you are full standalone.
According to some of the info I have, the ABS system looks for info from the DME, AGS, Steering angle sensor, and Dash over the CAN bus.

In BMW speak these are:

DME - Engine ECU
AGS - Auto Transmission controller
LEW - Steering angle sensor
KOMBI - Dash

From wiring diagrams....it might be just as simple as unplugging the DME and connecting a shunt resistor across the - / + CAN bus wires.

The ABS system does look for a torque value from the DME, and can send a torque reduction request to the DME, but who's to say the ABS would think anything was wrong if the torque value was absent, and the torque reduction requests went no-where?

Something I'll have to do more research on....

I'm assuming the ABS works fine on your car? The system itself has all of it's sensors (except the steering angle) wired directly to the controller...so in a way it is a stand-alone system that communicates with others what it is doing.
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Old 12-29-2011, 12:12 AM   #170
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abs & dash

Quote:
According to some of the info I have, the ABS system looks for info from the DME, AGS, Steering angle sensor, and Dash over the CAN bus.

In BMW speak these are:

DME - Engine ECU
AGS - Auto Transmission controller
LEW - Steering angle sensor
KOMBI - Dash

From wiring diagrams....it might be just as simple as unplugging the DME and connecting a shunt resistor across the - / + CAN bus wires.

The ABS system does look for a torque value from the DME, and can send a torque reduction request to the DME, but who's to say the ABS would think anything was wrong if the torque value was absent, and the torque reduction requests went no-where?

Something I'll have to do more research on....

I'm assuming the ABS works fine on your car? The system itself has all of it's sensors (except the steering angle) wired directly to the controller...so in a way it is a stand-alone system that communicates with others what it is doing.

All the E46's we do support the stock dash & ABS.

We just piggyback it - the Pectel controls all the outputs but the stock ECU is still there providing info to the CAN bus, etc. We've done this on many cars. If we let the stock ECU control VANOS and wired in some resistors to simulate injector loads a-la Pro-EFI, it wouldn't even throw a CEL. But we prefer to control the VANOS (and e-throttle on drive-by-wire cars) so I don't bother - if Jake really wants we should be able to reflash the stock ECU to delete the CEL's.

Not only does the ABS work fine, but the Pectel gets its wheelspeed info for traction control from the stock ABS computer. In fact, for 03+ cars, the Pectel can read the CAN messages from the ABS computer directly.

-Neel
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:34 AM   #171
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All the E46's we do support the stock dash & ABS.

We just piggyback it - the Pectel controls all the outputs but the stock ECU is still there providing info to the CAN bus, etc. We've done this on many cars. If we let the stock ECU control VANOS and wired in some resistors to simulate injector loads a-la Pro-EFI, it wouldn't even throw a CEL. But we prefer to control the VANOS (and e-throttle on drive-by-wire cars) so I don't bother - if Jake really wants we should be able to reflash the stock ECU to delete the CEL's.

Not only does the ABS work fine, but the Pectel gets its wheelspeed info for traction control from the stock ABS computer. In fact, for 03+ cars, the Pectel can read the CAN messages from the ABS computer directly.

-Neel
Again...excellent info Neel, thanks for sharing that.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:26 AM   #172
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An M600 is $4430, not $3900. but you need the advanced functions options, active cam control, data logging & wideband, then you need external igniters. This adds nearly $2500 to the price, so a MOTEC is $6930. And it still lacks the knock control, multi-map and advanced boost control functions that Jake's Pectel has.
MOTEC is good but ain't cheap, straight up overpriced if you ask me. It is meant for the professional motorsports people where budget is not limited. For street BMW's why not just use AEM EMS Series 2 which should has all the functions and retails for like $1500?! I don't know if they currently make a plug and play harness for BMW but I'm sure they can easily do one... I guess I should call my buddy up at AEM and look into this.

So, what about modifying factory BMW ECU's?! For Honda's, the factory ECU is fully mapped, and even reprogrammed (at low level assembly language) so now we can actually do all kinds of fancy stuff with it just like a expensive stand alone. Pricing is well below $800 and it includes real time programming capability as well (gotta love EE hackers/programmers). Does such a system exists for BMW?

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Old 12-29-2011, 09:21 AM   #173
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MOTEC is good but ain't cheap, straight up overpriced if you ask me. It is meant for the professional motorsports people where budget is not limited. For street BMW's why not just use AEM EMS Series 2 which should has all the functions and retails for like $1500?! I don't know if they currently make a plug and play harness for BMW but I'm sure they can easily do one... I guess I should call my buddy up at AEM and look into this.

So, what about modifying factory BMW ECU's?! For Honda's, the factory ECU is fully mapped, and even reprogrammed (at low level assembly language) so now we can actually do all kinds of fancy stuff with it just like a expensive stand alone. Pricing is well below $800 and it includes real time programming capability as well (gotta love EE hackers/programmers). Does such a system exists for BMW?
Why not create your own thread?

You need a lot of help....
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:49 AM   #174
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MOTEC is good but ain't cheap, straight up overpriced if you ask me. It is meant for the professional motorsports people where budget is not limited. For street BMW's why not just use AEM EMS Series 2 which should has all the functions and retails for like $1500?! I don't know if they currently make a plug and play harness for BMW but I'm sure they can easily do one... I guess I should call my buddy up at AEM and look into this.
I'm a factory AEM, MOTEC, Pectel & Vi-PEC dealer; in fact we're working with AEM on their new Infinity ECU right now. You can't compare ECUs the way you've done without understanding the differences. And you certainly can't generalize the way you have.

The simple fact is, there are things the MOTEC will do that the AEM won't. As will the Pectel & Vi-PECs. There are different solutions for different projects. I have customers with 1000hp+ street BMWs who could never work with an AEM EMS Series 2. And even at the 1500 price range, its a fairly limited ECU which we don't recommend for E46's. It doesn't control dual driver VANOS, Drive By Wire, close-loop knock control or many of the important functions that make an E46 what it is. The Vi-PEC V88 is much better suited to the E46 at that price range.

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So, what about modifying factory BMW ECU's?! For Honda's, the factory ECU is fully mapped, and even reprogrammed (at low level assembly language) so now we can actually do all kinds of fancy stuff with it just like a expensive stand alone. Pricing is well below $800 and it includes real time programming capability as well (gotta love EE hackers/programmers). Does such a system exists for BMW?
We do that too. And the stock ECU control strategies lack simple functions that are important to a lot of E46 customers. How exactly do you do integrated boost, nitrous or water injection with the stock ECU? The point is, there are different solutions for different people. Perhaps you're building a car where all you need is a stock ECU reflash. Doesn't mean someone else with an E46 can get away with that. You can't make generalized statements in the manner you have. The proper thing to do is to speak with an expert whose familiar with all the solutions and has the integrity to help you choose the best one for your budget and needs.

-Neel
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:10 AM   #175
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That will point me in the right directions... thanks. I'm not new to tuning at all, just new to tuning BMW's... and no experience using the high end stuff like Pectel, MOTEC (limited experience)... sounds like I might be picking your brain in the future Neel. Thanks again.

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We do that too. And the stock ECU control strategies lack simple functions that are important to a lot of E46 customers. How exactly do you do integrated boost, nitrous or water injection with the stock ECU?
A good enough programmer can program the new functions (in low level assembly language) into the stock ECU. :-)

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Old 12-29-2011, 11:17 AM   #176
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I left posting on this site with my project, for much the same reason adam has (pei) this has become hpf ground and unless you are running hpf stuff here no one cares, so I have a new site that I posted most of my new info on. My name is the same there so if you google it or 323i turbo both my threads come up on google dang near the top. The reason i do not post my dyno is one the car is either going to get nitrous to spool the turbo faster or I am going to go to a gt 40r for more boost, so why post something that is not done? Second I have a few races planned with people a couple from here so why would i give out the info to my comp before the race? And lastly there was a time that I gave out every bit of info on my project that people asked and all I really got was your lying, it's not possible etc. so why fuel the fire! In the end I do not care who does or does not believe me
So after that to answer your question no I have a e85 setup so I am not running race fuel but instead e85. No I am not on the stock long block, I have a stock cryo treated block, and stock cryo treated head that has been ported, but all lifters, springs are stock, I have upgraded valves. The bottom end is a different story: arrow rods, cp pistons, crank out of a 330i these items were all cryo treated except for the crank if i recall correctly.
I understand where you're coming from. Lot of idiot forum posters out there that don't know keep their mouth shut. I'm interested in the technical aspects as you can see, but I'll continue this in private. :-) Sounds like you have created a monster!! Cheers.
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:23 AM   #177
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Why not create your own thread?

You need a lot of help....

Well said , AEM is an inferior product imo , only hpf fanboys who cant think for themselves buy it..

Adam/Neel do you have any info on how the ASC system works ? Currently im using one of the 4 TB pot's(M52 TB) for TPS signal and joining the signal wires from #1-2 and #3-4 at the dme , was hoping this would fool the dme to think the MDK is fine, yet i still get a light.(Do i need to Pro-Efi the injector leads ?)
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Old 12-29-2011, 12:44 PM   #178
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Several points.

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A good enough programmer can program the new functions (in low level assembly language) into the stock ECU. :-)
I think you should delve a bit deeper into the specific hardware constraints before you make claims about what is and what's not possible. The stock ECUs I/Os are very hardware specific. Let me give you a very specific example. I was contracted to go to Daytona a few weeks ago to work with the new factory Dodge Grand Am effort. Dodge Viper ACR's are running factory ECUs because this is mandated. Dodge's engineer have been able to add race-specific functionality to it, but in a very limited and cumbersome fashion which is marginal at best. The ACR engineers have freely admitted aftermarket racing solution is much preferred over what they have to work with. And these guys have access to manpower & budget to do anything they want with their OEM ECUs.

The same exists in the Bosch/Siemens world. These constraints led Porsche to replace the OEM ECU as used in early 996 GT3 Cup cars with a Bosch MS3.1, which has continued through the 997 range. Again, despite having access to any code generation required, they found the hardware to be the limitation in adding functions and features.

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Sounds like you have created a monster!! Cheers.
As the only other guy here who has driven and ridden in this car, I can confirm this. Its a blast.

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Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
Why not create your own thread?

You need a lot of help....

Well said , AEM is an inferior product imo , only hpf fanboys who cant think for themselves buy it..
The more time I spend on these forums, the more this frustrates me. There are many product "fanboys" out there - and this isn't about any specific vendor. Claims such as "best knock control," "best traction control," "best flex fuel" get thrown around a lot, with no reference to what specifically makes them better than competing products. Too many of these claims are made by exclusive suppliers and repeated by their vendors and customers who have little experience with other products. And too many people simply take their word for it. Suppliers that perpetuate this lose credibility to me.

Recently, I was very impressed by our friends at MOTEC USA. Instead of telling me how their products were better, they gave us a call and said they'd like our opinion how are products are better than others, and how they're not. Obviously, these guys don't tune other ECUs very often, so what they hear is secondhand from their customers. The openness they showed made an impression - the completely opposite impression than other vendors who like to tell me how their products are better than something they've never personally used.

I spoke to a representative from a major European ECU company yesterday. He's not only a partner in that company, but a tuner who actively supports other ECUs - he's on the dyno with other brands on a regular basis. He flatly told me what his competition did better, and what he did better. He also told me what they are doing to beat the competition.

AEM has been fantastic in their dialog about the new Infinity 10 ECU. They are actively canvassing not just me but other well known tuners for opinions on what they have to do to make their products better.

I can sat the same for Haltech & a few other suppliers, these are people that realize "marketing spin" just dilutes that value of an ECU. My point is this: Arrogance is a weakness. If you're running around telling everyone how your product is the best, but either aren't willing to show us in the context of your competition what makes your product better, or you don't demonstrate an interest in learning where you stand, I can't help but be a bit skeptical of your claims. This is NOT a criticism of any specific product or their actual capabilities, its a criticism of the marketing claims and arrogance of some suppliers.

Quote:
Adam/Neel do you have any info on how the ASC system works ? Currently im using one of the 4 TB pot's(M52 TB) for TPS signal and joining the signal wires from #1-2 and #3-4 at the dme , was hoping this would fool the dme to think the MDK is fine, yet i still get a light.(Do i need to Pro-Efi the injector leads ?)
I don't think you can do this. The signals are different from the pots, and its looking for feedback - if the throttles don't do what the ECU commands, its not going to work.

-Neel
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Old 12-29-2011, 01:46 PM   #179
SweTurbo
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Originally Posted by Apex Neel View Post
I think you should delve a bit deeper into the specific hardware constraints before you make claims about what is and what's not possible. The stock ECUs I/Os are very hardware specific. Let me give you a very specific example. I was contracted to go to Daytona a few weeks ago to work with the new factory Dodge Grand Am effort. Dodge Viper ACR's are running factory ECUs because this is mandated. Dodge's engineer have been able to add race-specific functionality to it, but in a very limited and cumbersome fashion which is marginal at best. The ACR engineers have freely admitted aftermarket racing solution is much preferred over what they have to work with. And these guys have access to manpower & budget to do anything they want with their OEM ECUs.

The same exists in the Bosch/Siemens world. These constraints led Porsche to replace the OEM ECU as used in early 996 GT3 Cup cars with a Bosch MS3.1, which has continued through the 997 range. Again, despite having access to any code generation required, they found the hardware to be the limitation in adding functions and features.



As the only other guy here who has driven and ridden in this car, I can confirm this. Its a blast.



The more time I spend on these forums, the more this frustrates me. There are many product "fanboys" out there - and this isn't about any specific vendor. Claims such as "best knock control," "best traction control," "best flex fuel" get thrown around a lot, with no reference to what specifically makes them better than competing products. Too many of these claims are made by exclusive suppliers and repeated by their vendors and customers who have little experience with other products. And too many people simply take their word for it. Suppliers that perpetuate this lose credibility to me.

Recently, I was very impressed by our friends at MOTEC USA. Instead of telling me how their products were better, they gave us a call and said they'd like our opinion how are products are better than others, and how they're not. Obviously, these guys don't tune other ECUs very often, so what they hear is secondhand from their customers. The openness they showed made an impression - the completely opposite impression than other vendors who like to tell me how their products are better than something they've never personally used.

I spoke to a representative from a major European ECU company yesterday. He's not only a partner in that company, but a tuner who actively supports other ECUs - he's on the dyno with other brands on a regular basis. He flatly told me what his competition did better, and what he did better. He also told me what they are doing to beat the competition.

AEM has been fantastic in their dialog about the new Infinity 10 ECU. They are actively canvassing not just me but other well known tuners for opinions on what they have to do to make their products better.

I can sat the same for Haltech & a few other suppliers, these are people that realize "marketing spin" just dilutes that value of an ECU. My point is this: Arrogance is a weakness. If you're running around telling everyone how your product is the best, but either aren't willing to show us in the context of your competition what makes your product better, or you don't demonstrate an interest in learning where you stand, I can't help but be a bit skeptical of your claims. This is NOT a criticism of any specific product or their actual capabilities, its a criticism of the marketing claims and arrogance of some suppliers.


I don't think you can do this. The signals are different from the pots, and its looking for feedback - if the throttles don't do what the ECU commands, its not going to work.

-Neel
Cheers for the reply , i do agree about the new AEM , the poster however said "buy the v2 and your car will shit horsepower"

As for the ASC the M52 TB is controlled by the DME.
It measures the TPS on the TB and then uses a motor to drive the actual valve to the corresponding position which is measured by another pair of tps'es (it has 2tps'es for the valve and 2 for the "throttle" part)

Hence i use 1 of each for my ems and wire the stock DME's input so that the 4 tps'es it reads are just 2 physical.

My dme supports % slip calculation so i could get my TC from there but im a perfectionist so even if i remove the lights i will know something is not as it should be
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Old 12-29-2011, 01:56 PM   #180
Apex Neel
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Hence i use 1 of each for my ems and wire the stock DME's input so that the 4 tps'es it reads are just 2 physical.
What's controlling the throttles? Stock EMS or yours?

-neel
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