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Old 01-12-2012, 10:32 PM   #81
bwonders
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Rob can you more accurately describe the "ticking" sound that you said your engine was making after the high HP Dyno pulls? The reason I ask is that I have an HPF stage 2 and I'm hearing maybe a similar sound to what you describe. What I hear is a ticking or knocking when the engine is cold, after it warms up the sound is almost completely gone but I'm still concerned and have been wondering what to do about it. HPF and Lutz had one hell of a time trying to sort out tunning issues with my car, they finally got it all worked out and its been running perfectly but I'm wondering if all the dyno time may have damaged something internally. It kinda sucks cause the car runs so nice now and the power delivery is perfect on all maps but I'm affraid to push it to hard for long stretches knowing that sound is there and fearing I endup with a failure similar to yours.

Your input is greatly appreciated.
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:52 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwonders View Post
Rob can you more accurately describe the "ticking" sound that you said your engine was making after the high HP Dyno pulls? The reason I ask is that I have an HPF stage 2 and I'm hearing maybe a similar sound to what you describe. What I hear is a ticking or knocking when the engine is cold, after it warms up the sound is almost completely gone but I'm still concerned and have been wondering what to do about it. HPF and Lutz had one hell of a time trying to sort out tunning issues with my car, they finally got it all worked out and its been running perfectly but I'm wondering if all the dyno time may have damaged something internally. It kinda sucks cause the car runs so nice now and the power delivery is perfect on all maps but I'm affraid to push it to hard for long stretches knowing that sound is there and fearing I endup with a failure similar to yours.

Your input is greatly appreciated.
It was originally thought to be in the valve train, so I paid to have the valves adjusted. Obviously, the noise continued. Mine seemed just opposite of yours in the fact I had no noise when I started it cold, but after about 20 seconds it would start ticking. Many people heard it, but nobody really had any good idea of what it was. I don't know if a hairline crack in the rod that failed could have been the noise, or if it was something completely unrelated. It wasn't near loud enough to be a rod bearing or wrist pin, but definitely louder than your average valve noise. Hope that helps a little.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:03 PM   #83
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ticking

I also have a stage 2 with exactly the same ticking sound your describing,goes away when warmed up. I was going to pm Rob the same exact question so thank you. I have inquired about the noise with a few mechanics,John from hpf being one of them, he said its normal with their kits, something to do with vanos and lack of lubrication. Another very experienced bmw mechanic said it is piston pin slop, I think ?. Anyways I have been aprehensive whenever i get into boost for fear something is going to blow and then i read what happened to Rob
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:10 PM   #84
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It's the vanos...talk to beissan systems about it...its normal for every single M3 out there...unless of course it is retardedly loud. The exhaust hub tabs have been known to break taking out many an engine...thus far there has not been a single Vanos attributed failure on an HPF car...but many many on stock M3's. Tonnes of info on this on m3forum. Go here...phone the guy and talk to him about it...he has a fix. http://www.beisansystems.com/
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:18 PM   #85
robshpf
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ticking

thanks Kenton,i hope your right. The thing is my car didnt make the ticking noise until after the turbo kit was installed so I guess we will see. I am familiar with beisian and there remedy, about 3k If I remember correctly.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:46 PM   #86
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thanks Kenton,i hope your right. The thing is my car didnt make the ticking noise until after the turbo kit was installed so I guess we will see. I am familiar with beisian and there remedy, about 3k If I remember correctly.
Mine made a little more noise once I got a fully built engine...vanos completely pulled off and reinstalled with new seals...standard HPF built engine treatment.

Beisan is supposed to be coming out with a shim kit for the exhaust hub issue as it basically rattles around in there...could be the knocking noise associated with it...mabe different idle characteristics because the AEM is controlling it causing more rattle.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:30 AM   #87
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I was told to expect a noisier motor after an HPF kit, especially if it is a "built" motor. We had some louder than normal noises so rebuilt the vanos partially with Besian Viton orings and did a careful valve adjust. The valves WERE out a bit BTW.

This the first catastrophic rod failure so far on an HPF built motor?
I was concerned about a lot of things at first and all of them answered or attended to. I am not worried about the rods in spite of Rob's misfortune. (Deeply sorry for your loss, Rob)

Off topic: someone recently asked me why our heads are not oringed. I told him because :
1) It is not necessary with the new custom ARP head bolts
2) and/or because there simply is not enough space to properly o ring them(this is was a guess)
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:35 AM   #88
need4spd
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There is always stronger rods. Get some corillo HD's. Although they are more expensive than the crowlers.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:09 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Bdave View Post

This the first catastrophic rod failure so far on an HPF built motor?
I was stage 2, so all stock internals. I know of one built that bent a rod, but it didn't break. I don't know what the cause was.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:52 AM   #90
M3PTGSC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwonders View Post
Rob can you more accurately describe the "ticking" sound that you said your engine was making after the high HP Dyno pulls? The reason I ask is that I have an HPF stage 2 and I'm hearing maybe a similar sound to what you describe. What I hear is a ticking or knocking when the engine is cold, after it warms up the sound is almost completely gone but I'm still concerned and have been wondering what to do about it. HPF and Lutz had one hell of a time trying to sort out tunning issues with my car, they finally got it all worked out and its been running perfectly but I'm wondering if all the dyno time may have damaged something internally. It kinda sucks cause the car runs so nice now and the power delivery is perfect on all maps but I'm affraid to push it to hard for long stretches knowing that sound is there and fearing I endup with a failure similar to yours.

Your input is greatly appreciated.
What you describing is vanos noise,i had it on all my M3s and its louder when the engine/oil is cold...
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:36 AM   #91
02black330ci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwonders View Post
Rob can you more accurately describe the "ticking" sound that you said your engine was making after the high HP Dyno pulls? The reason I ask is that I have an HPF stage 2 and I'm hearing maybe a similar sound to what you describe. What I hear is a ticking or knocking when the engine is cold, after it warms up the sound is almost completely gone but I'm still concerned and have been wondering what to do about it. HPF and Lutz had one hell of a time trying to sort out tunning issues with my car, they finally got it all worked out and its been running perfectly but I'm wondering if all the dyno time may have damaged something internally. It kinda sucks cause the car runs so nice now and the power delivery is perfect on all maps but I'm affraid to push it to hard for long stretches knowing that sound is there and fearing I endup with a failure similar to yours.

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Twin Rob View Post
It was originally thought to be in the valve train, so I paid to have the valves adjusted. Obviously, the noise continued. Mine seemed just opposite of yours in the fact I had no noise when I started it cold, but after about 20 seconds it would start ticking. Many people heard it, but nobody really had any good idea of what it was. I don't know if a hairline crack in the rod that failed could have been the noise, or if it was something completely unrelated. It wasn't near loud enough to be a rod bearing or wrist pin, but definitely louder than your average valve noise. Hope that helps a little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robshpf View Post
I also have a stage 2 with exactly the same ticking sound your describing,goes away when warmed up. I was going to pm Rob the same exact question so thank you. I have inquired about the noise with a few mechanics,John from hpf being one of them, he said its normal with their kits, something to do with vanos and lack of lubrication. Another very experienced bmw mechanic said it is piston pin slop, I think ?. Anyways I have been aprehensive whenever i get into boost for fear something is going to blow and then i read what happened to Rob
Lets start a new thread with his information, specially since this is Maria's thread. I have the same symptom but only when its cold, after it warms up it goes away. Car is running strong as always. I was mainly thinking it was a valve adjustment issue, which I am going to do here soon. I didn't think VANOS would just act up when cold, then go away when warmed up. I figure the noise would be constant and louder as the car revs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
It's the vanos...talk to beissan systems about it...its normal for every single M3 out there...unless of course it is retardedly loud. The exhaust hub tabs have been known to break taking out many an engine...thus far there has not been a single Vanos attributed failure on an HPF car...but many many on stock M3's. Tonnes of info on this on m3forum. Go here...phone the guy and talk to him about it...he has a fix. http://www.beisansystems.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
Mine made a little more noise once I got a fully built engine...vanos completely pulled off and reinstalled with new seals...standard HPF built engine treatment.

Beisan is supposed to be coming out with a shim kit for the exhaust hub issue as it basically rattles around in there...could be the knocking noise associated with it...mabe different idle characteristics because the AEM is controlling it causing more rattle.
Does the noise continue once the car is warmed up? Is it louder as it revs higher? Does it only do it while cold?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
I was told to expect a noisier motor after an HPF kit, especially if it is a "built" motor. We had some louder than normal noises so rebuilt the vanos partially with Besian Viton orings and did a careful valve adjust. The valves WERE out a bit BTW.
Same questions as Kenton:

Does the noise continue once the car is warmed up? Is it louder as it revs higher? Does it only do it while cold?
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:47 AM   #92
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It's louder when cold obviously...still there when warm. I believe it's different idle characteristics with an aftermarket ecu vs the stock dme...the noise you hear is in the Vanos via the hubs clicking back and forth from accel/decel when controlling the idle. Seriously if you are worried call Raj at Beisan...or email him...he's a pretty nice guy to talk to...and he will make you want to fix the issue inherent with all S54's...and he doesn't overcharge like Dr.Vanos. He rebuilds the solenoids in the vanos (does it properly!!)...provides a sealing kit and he is probably nearing release of his shim kit. He's been testing it out for a while now. I'll be doing the full rebuild just before summer most likely.

Edit: If memory serves me correctly I don't think I notice it as much on cold starts as the rpms are higher and my cold idle is rock solid...my idle hot with AC on is rock solid...my idle hot with AC off is a bit wobbly. I've had the idle touched up once and it most likely needs a bit more fine tuning to make it perfect...now we're only talking like 50rpm of sway and its barely noticeable...but I notice every little thing when it comes to how my beast runs. The only time I really notice the clicking is when the car is warmed up and I can hear the rpm sway a bit with the clicking. Again lots of videos of the vanos rattle on youtube.

Also looks like there is axial play in a bearing that can cause the clicking as well...I'm more worried about the exhaust hub tabs though as those suckers have destroyed many an S54 when they've broke.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:50 AM   #93
02black330ci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
It's louder when cold obviously...still there when warm. I believe it's different idle characteristics with an aftermarket ecu vs the stock dme...the noise you hear is in the Vanos via the hubs clicking back and forth from accel/decel when controlling the idle. Seriously if you are worried call Raj at Beisan...or email him...he's a pretty nice guy to talk to...and he will make you want to fix the issue inherent with all S54's...and he doesn't overcharge like Dr.Vanos. He rebuilds the solenoids in the vanos (does it properly!!)...provides a sealing kit and he is probably nearing release of his shim kit. He's been testing it out for a while now. I'll be doing the full rebuild just before summer most likely.

Edit: If memory serves me correctly I don't think I notice it as much on cold starts as the rpms are higher and my cold idle is rock solid...my idle hot with AC on is rock solid...my idle hot with AC off is a bit wobbly. I've had the idle touched up once and it most likely needs a bit more fine tuning to make it perfect...now we're only talking like 50rpm of sway and its barely noticeable...but I notice every little thing when it comes to how my beast runs. The only time I really notice the clicking is when the car is warmed up and I can hear the rpm sway a bit with the clicking. Again lots of videos of the vanos rattle on youtube.

Also looks like there is axial play in a bearing that can cause the clicking as well...I'm more worried about the exhaust hub tabs though as those suckers have destroyed many an S54 when they've broke.
I am definitely picky about my idle also, but mine is rock solid. We'll continue the discussion on your other thread.

VANOS discussion continued thread:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=871427
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