Boosted Vanos Upgrades

Originally Posted by 02black330ci

Very good information for all to know, I am still educating myself in this whole VANOS subject. I guess a pro-active measure would be to take the VANOS system apart for inspection and replace parts that seem severely stressed/wornout. The upside to DIY is having all the correct tools to do the job or getting creative and developing our own (if possible in this case).

Yeah the labor portion seems rather involved and I would personally pay the unfortunate added costs of having it done by someone with much more experience than myself.

If only preventative maintenance was free....then I'd have much better allocation of car funds for fun parts haha

Originally Posted by flipm3

If only preventative maintenance was free....then I'd have much better allocation of car funds for fun parts haha

I hear ya man, the fun parts are what count

Thread Revival and Posts concerning Vanos:

Originally Posted by bwonders

Rob can you more accurately describe the "ticking" sound that you said your engine was making after the high HP Dyno pulls? The reason I ask is that I have an HPF stage 2 and I'm hearing maybe a similar sound to what you describe. What I hear is a ticking or knocking when the engine is cold, after it warms up the sound is almost completely gone but I'm still concerned and have been wondering what to do about it. HPF and Lutz had one hell of a time trying to sort out tunning issues with my car, they finally got it all worked out and its been running perfectly but I'm wondering if all the dyno time may have damaged something internally. It kinda sucks cause the car runs so nice now and the power delivery is perfect on all maps but I'm affraid to push it to hard for long stretches knowing that sound is there and fearing I endup with a failure similar to yours.

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by Evil Twin Rob

It was originally thought to be in the valve train, so I paid to have the valves adjusted. Obviously, the noise continued. Mine seemed just opposite of yours in the fact I had no noise when I started it cold, but after about 20 seconds it would start ticking. Many people heard it, but nobody really had any good idea of what it was. I don't know if a hairline crack in the rod that failed could have been the noise, or if it was something completely unrelated. It wasn't near loud enough to be a rod bearing or wrist pin, but definitely louder than your average valve noise. Hope that helps a little.

Originally Posted by robshpf

I also have a stage 2 with exactly the same ticking sound your describing,goes away when warmed up. I was going to pm Rob the same exact question so thank you. I have inquired about the noise with a few mechanics,John from hpf being one of them, he said its normal with their kits, something to do with vanos and lack of lubrication. Another very experienced bmw mechanic said it is piston pin slop, I think ?. Anyways I have been aprehensive whenever i get into boost for fear something is going to blow and then i read what happened to Rob

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

It's the vanos...talk to beissan systems about it...its normal for every single M3 out there...unless of course it is retardedly loud. The exhaust hub tabs have been known to break taking out many an engine...thus far there has not been a single Vanos attributed failure on an HPF car...but many many on stock M3's. Tonnes of info on this on m3forum. Go here...phone the guy and talk to him about it...he has a fix. http://www.beisansystems.com/

Originally Posted by robshpf

thanks Kenton,i hope your right. The thing is my car didnt make the ticking noise until after the turbo kit was installed so I guess we will see. I am familiar with beisian and there remedy, about 3k If I remember correctly.

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Mine made a little more noise once I got a fully built engine...vanos completely pulled off and reinstalled with new seals...standard HPF built engine treatment.

Beisan is supposed to be coming out with a shim kit for the exhaust hub issue as it basically rattles around in there...could be the knocking noise associated with it...mabe different idle characteristics because the AEM is controlling it causing more rattle.

Originally Posted by Bdave

I was told to expect a noisier motor after an HPF kit, especially if it is a "built" motor. We had some louder than normal noises so rebuilt the vanos partially with Besian Viton orings and did a careful valve adjust. The valves WERE out a bit BTW.

This the first catastrophic rod failure so far on an HPF built motor?
I was concerned about a lot of things at first and all of them answered or attended to. I am not worried about the rods in spite of Rob's misfortune. (Deeply sorry for your loss, Rob)

Off topic: someone recently asked me why our heads are not oringed. I told him because :
1) It is not necessary with the new custom ARP head bolts
2) and/or because there simply is not enough space to properly o ring them(this is was a guess)

Originally Posted by need4spd

There is always stronger rods. Get some corillo HD's. Although they are more expensive than the crowlers.

Originally Posted by Evil Twin Rob

I was stage 2, so all stock internals. I know of one built that bent a rod, but it didn't break. I don't know what the cause was.

Originally Posted by M3PTGSC

What you describing is vanos noise,i had it on all my M3s and its louder when the engine/oil is cold...

Originally Posted by 02black330ci

Lets start a new thread with his information, specially since this is Maria's thread. I have the same symptom but only when its cold, after it warms up it goes away. Car is running strong as always. I was mainly thinking it was a valve adjustment issue, which I am going to do here soon. I didn't think VANOS would just act up when cold, then go away when warmed up. I figure the noise would be constant and louder as the car revs.







Does the noise continue once the car is warmed up? Is it louder as it revs higher? Does it only do it while cold?



Same questions as Kenton:

Does the noise continue once the car is warmed up? Is it louder as it revs higher? Does it only do it while cold?

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

It's louder when cold obviously...still there when warm. I believe it's different idle characteristics with an aftermarket ecu vs the stock dme...the noise you hear is in the Vanos via the hubs clicking back and forth from accel/decel when controlling the idle. Seriously if you are worried call Raj at Beisan...or email him...he's a pretty nice guy to talk to...and he will make you want to fix the issue inherent with all S54's...and he doesn't overcharge like Dr.Vanos. He rebuilds the solenoids in the vanos (does it properly!!)...provides a sealing kit and he is probably nearing release of his shim kit. He's been testing it out for a while now. I'll be doing the full rebuild just before summer most likely.

Edit: If memory serves me correctly I don't think I notice it as much on cold starts as the rpms are higher and my cold idle is rock solid...my idle hot with AC on is rock solid...my idle hot with AC off is a bit wobbly. I've had the idle touched up once and it most likely needs a bit more fine tuning to make it perfect...now we're only talking like 50rpm of sway and its barely noticeable...but I notice every little thing when it comes to how my beast runs. The only time I really notice the clicking is when the car is warmed up and I can hear the rpm sway a bit with the clicking. Again lots of videos of the vanos rattle on youtube.

Also looks like there is axial play in a bearing that can cause the clicking as well...I'm more worried about the exhaust hub tabs though as those suckers have destroyed many an S54 when they've broke.

So to summarize...things that are not so hot in the Vanos:
- Exhaust Hub Breaking (Beisan Solution in the works)
- Intake Cam Bolts Loosen up (Threadlocker with Z4M Cam bolts iirc)
- Vanos Solenoid Pack (Beisan Solution available and Dr.Vanos...Beisan is rebuilt and Dr.Vanos is overpriced new OEM with same inherent design flaw)
- Vanos Seals (Beisan Solution available)

Sent an email to Raj@Beisan asking what he recommends for a full overhaul on the S54 vanos and I expect he'll be back to me today.

^ let us know

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Thread Revival and Posts concerning Vanos:

So to summarize...things that are not so hot in the Vanos:
- Exhaust Hub Breaking (Beisan Solution in the works)
- Intake Cam Bolts Loosen up (Threadlocker with Z4M Cam bolts iirc)
- Vanos Solenoid Pack (Beisan Solution available and Dr.Vanos...Beisan is rebuilt and Dr.Vanos is overpriced new OEM with same inherent design flaw)
- Vanos Seals (Beisan Solution available)

Sent an email to Raj@Beisan asking what he recommends for a full overhaul on the S54 vanos and I expect he'll be back to me today.

Thanks Kenton, this is definitely useful information for all of us and thanks for keeping it in one thread. That other thread started to get me worries specially since I am not the only one that has the ticking noise. Lets see what he has to say about our similar symptoms.

Originally Posted by 02black330ci

Thanks Kenton, this is definitely useful information for all of us and thanks for keeping it in one thread. That other thread started to get me worries specially since I am not the only one that has the ticking noise. Lets see what he has to say about our similar symptoms.

We often see M3's with the typical Vanos tick. The ticking generally subsides after about 10-20 seconds upon startup. If it doesn't, most of the time a simple vanos adjustment fixes it which we do automatically on all built motors and on other M3's when people request it. In some cases (which is rare) we will find that the vanos is broken. In these cases we will either replace the broken parts if we have extras or sell the customer a used one from our shop or a new one at their request.

Chris.

Originally Posted by HPF Chris

We often see M3's with the typical Vanos tick. The ticking generally subsides after about 10-20 seconds upon startup. If it doesn't, most of the time a simple vanos adjustment fixes it which we do automatically on all built motors and on other M3's when people request it. In some cases (which is rare) we will find that the vanos is broken. In these cases we will either replace the broken parts if we have extras or sell the customer a used one from our shop or a new one at their request.

Chris.

Good to hear Chris, thanks for the input. I need to find out more about the adjustment of the VANOS, why does it need adjustment in the first place? Is it a side effect of the bolts coming loose in the intack side or something else?

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Well I spoke with Raj from Beisan Systems a few moments ago and he has some very interesting things to say about the S54 Vanos.

Basically from what I gathered there was an earlier BMW euro engine design that had the general "Exhaust Tab" clearance set lower than the current S54 that uses the exact same setup minus the difference in clearance. The S54 tab clearance is higher which appears to cause more rattle and risks failure of these tabs. Raj is developing a sleeve kit to solve this and should be released soon.

In addition the bolts on the Intake side I believe are a common issue with rattling loose.

The solenoid failure is also another issue.

I believe he said the seals aren't the biggest issue but may as well replace them while we're in there.

From what I can summarize, a rattle kit, seal kit, solenoid kit, and some thread-locker on the the bolts for exhaust/intake sides is probably the best solution. I've linked this thread in an email to Raj so he can hopefully comment on it and reduce the amount of phone calls he gets as he's just in the process of finishing this up atm for product release.

And from what I can gather at a significantly lower cost than the Dr.Vanos kit which from what others have said is extremely overpriced for a basically stock OEM unit that has just been cleaned and could possibly yield the "Ticking timebomb" effect later.

Good research. I asked that my VANOS be gone over while the new head bolts were being installed as I posted earlier (for many of you that dont read or reread an entire thread).. I dont think as much was done as I would have liked. Mostly the seals were all re done in Viton from Besian. They did not have the plate out yet with the built in VITON orings. I think that is easy to add later. But i am seeing things that some guys did that I can have done when the new parts come out. When those new parts by Besian are available I think I will order a deeper rebuild.

Its not much regret I have since a few of the really neat things are not available yet. I heard one tech(not mine) say he could get to the VANOS and have it half way stripped in two hours. I'd like to see that! Seems like bragging.

In any event, the VANOS rebuild is one of those things that's really expensive to do but wise IMO.

My tech did say that Besians electrical refit of the VANOS was not necessary on one with 50K miles on it.
I am liking what Besian is doing. I read in a Besian blog somewhere something about what CW is talking about. I dont understand ALL of it, but I do believe it is important to consider.

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Thread Revival and Posts concerning Vanos:

So to summarize...things that are not so hot in the Vanos:
- Exhaust Hub Breaking (Beisan Solution in the works)
- Intake Cam Bolts Loosen up (Threadlocker with Z4M Cam bolts iirc)
- Vanos Solenoid Pack (Beisan Solution available and Dr.Vanos...Beisan is rebuilt and Dr.Vanos is overpriced new OEM with same inherent design flaw)
- Vanos Seals (Beisan Solution available)

Sent an email to Raj@Beisan asking what he recommends for a full overhaul on the S54 vanos and I expect he'll be back to me today.

Great. I need this. Some of the work is done already. But a lot is not. Did you see that plate that is about to become available? Not very expensive...12bux? but really nice with all the Viton orings built in it. its the tabs though I am most concerned about.

I was all for buying the Besian Solenoid. THat was one thing that my tech thought was only necessary in a really HIGH mileage motor....over 100K. So i dunno. Thats what I was told....
other wise I agree with your. I might still put that solenoid.

Just stumbled on this in the M3 section. Seems relevant to this thread.
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=893984

My ticking was driving me nuts! So I ordered Dr Vanos today, the exhaust hub, and upgraded bolts. My car is at HPF, awaiting the new Vanos system.

Originally Posted by Evil Twin Rob

Just stumbled on this in the M3 section. Seems relevant to this thread.
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=893984

Good find Rob, not sure how we missed that one. Also, hope the best for your motor and glad you at least have most of the parts if you just want to put her back together to a Stage 2. The biggest problem us HPF owners have is that we don't driver our cars enough, lol.

Originally Posted by Rockyminator

My ticking was driving me nuts! So I ordered Dr Vanos today, the exhaust hub, and upgraded bolts. My car is at HPF, awaiting the new Vanos system.

Check the video out below, is that what your sounds like? Keep us posted once you receive your car back to see if the problem was resolved.

Found this on youtube, is this what everyone with the ticking symptom sound like also? This is very similar to what mine sounds like when cold. Does anyone know whom the owner is and what the fix was? Last comment on youtube stated that they took to MaximumPSI so they could take a look.

Originally Posted by 02black330ci

Check the video out below, is that what your sounds like? Keep us posted once you receive your car back to see if the problem was resolved.

Found this on youtube, is this what everyone with the ticking symptom sound like also? This is very similar to what mine sounds like when cold. Does anyone know whom the owner is and what the fix was? Last comment on youtube stated that they took to MaximumPSI so they could take a look.

Yes sir. That's kinda what my car sounds like. My ticking does get louder though. HPF said that my exhaust hub doesn't fit as tight as its suppose to. I ordered the upgraded hub, along with the full Vanos rebuild from Dr. Vanos. Cost a pretty penny but I think it's worth saving my motor.

Originally Posted by Rockyminator

Yes sir. That's kinda what my car sounds like. My ticking does get louder though. HPF said that my exhaust hub doesn't fit as tight as its suppose to. I ordered the upgraded hub, along with the full Vanos rebuild from Dr. Vanos. Cost a pretty penny but I think it's worth saving my motor.

Oh boy, time to do the VANOS .... Whats the info with the upgraded hub, ie where to buy, etc...

I hope you read a bit more into things before you (wasted ->IMO) all that coin...I know Mspired has had no issues with his Dr.Vanos upgrade but you seriously needed to call Raj at Beisan systems. Alot of history between the two companies and in a nut shell here is my take on it.

Dr.Vanos buys brand new OEM solenoid packs ( The same ones that fail in the first place)
Also the Cryo treatment on the exhaust hub could infact have negative effects on the exhaust tabs as it increases the brittleness of the metal...most failures are > 60k Miles so you won't know until you get more miles on it.

Dr.Vanos wants to make money...and he's doing that and isn't researching the primary reason or fix for the exhaust tabs like Raj is. Regardless you will want the updated crap from Raj when it comes out...and he doesn't care about the money...he's extremely passionate about BMW's engineering failure in regards to the vanos issues.

Seriously you owe it to yourself to call him regardless...I have spent a considerable amount of time looking into this and this is just my opinion...there is absolutely no reason...none...to blindly spend on something that is cheaper and imo better.


Edit: Don't take my word for it either...dig into all the threads on this on this forum, bfc and m3forum...there are tens of thousands of posts on this crap. Save the money for better upgrades.

And the video sounds fine...exhaust has an offbeat rasp to it that might throw you off but thats not the vanos...the tiny rattle is the only thing...way worse noises in other vids on youtube...don't look for hpf vanos in a search...try S54 Vanos, BMW Vanos Rattle...its universal for most e46's and many other bmw's...the rattle isn't the issue so much as the extra play in the exhaust tabs...obviously vanos service on the bearings/seals should be done every 80k imo and inspection or rebuild of the solenoid packs at your comfort but the exhaust tabs are what actually break...it is a ticking time bomb.

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

most failures are > 60k Miles so you won't know until you get more miles on it.

Mine only has 45k on it, sad, so sad! I'll give him a call and see what he recommends.

Originally Posted by 02black330ci

Oh boy, time to do the VANOS .... Whats the info with the upgraded hub, ie where to buy, etc...

I got it all from Drvanos.com. The hub is cryogenically upgraded (stronger than OEM), so the tabs won't break as easy I guess. The Vanos failure thread scared the crap out of me so I'm taking every measure I can to save the motor... that and my car is starting to sound like a diesel truck.

Its probably nothing more than a 2-3% Exhaust Hub failure rate on the S54 so don't be afraid to drive the car for fear its going to blow...I mean once Raj releases this Hub Shim it will give me that added peace of mind. There are alot of posts on this topic because its a problem that can/will/has taken out many engines...heck some tabs are broken and we don't even know it! I dunno its a pita problem but def talk to Raj, he WILL give you the no bullsh!t explaination.

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Its probably nothing more than a 2-3% Exhaust Hub failure rate on the S54 so don't be afraid to drive the car for fear its going to blow...I mean once Raj releases this Hub Shim it will give me that added peace of mind. There are alot of posts on this topic because its a problem that can/will/has taken out many engines...heck some tabs are broken and we don't even know it! I dunno its a pita problem but def talk to Raj, he WILL give you the no bullsh!t explaination.

What does the hub shim do?

Originally Posted by Rockyminator

What does the hub shim do?

There are two tabs on the rear of the exhaust hub...these tabs are what rattle around...over time these tabs can break...the shims increase the clearance and reduce the forces exerted on the tabs so that they will have a less tendancy to break as there will not be the larger distance for movement to occur.

Here's a pic of two hubs with broke exhaust tabs...

My car sounds just like the one in the video. My car only has 35k on it. Does sound like a diesel for the first minute or so. Should I be worried?