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Old 02-05-2012, 05:45 AM   #41
MJLavelle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk330i View Post
So does anyone know the real operation of the vacuum circuit for the SAP system? I'm trying figure out why I'm have no resistance in the line from the vacuum actuated valve at the SAP and the electric solenoid valve under the intake runners. Let me see if I get this straight, and anyone with the knowledge please correct me, here's how I see it working;
- On a cold startup, the SAP turns on to flood the exhaust manifold with air (oxygen) helping to reduce emissions and help heat the CAT.
- Simultaneously, the DME sends an "open" signal to the solenoid valve under the intake runners. When this opens, it vacuum actuates the vacuum valve by the SAP to open, allowing air into the manifold.
- After approx. 90-120 sec., the SAP turns off (via DME command), and I'm assuming, the DME closes the intake solenoid valve thereby shutting off vacuum to the valve at the exhaust manifold and air into the manifold.
- Car warms up, all systems go.
Simple, right? So I'm trying to figure my best odds here before I start throwing $$ at it. If it's just a vacuum line gone bad, no problem (yeah right, if you're Houdini and can reach under there!). If the solenoid valve is shot, then I would like to buy it before ripping into the teardown (still haven't figured out the best way to get at the valve) and they aren't cheap! Sorry to all if I'm rambling, I just think that if I find out what's up with my shudder issue then it might help someone else with lean running issues. Thanks again for the thread!
You pretty much have the sequence of events right. I had to replace my solenoid, because the plastic hose had degraded, and pieces of it had been sucked into the valve. I was not comfortable using it, even after cleaning it out, so I replaced it. It is a ***** to get at. I would try reconnecting a new hose first, and see if it is strong enough to activate the valve at the SAP. It is a pain to work on, because the car has to be cold when you test it, so it takes a while. If the hose has been open, then it may have been sucking trash into it, especially if the plastic hose has been breaking down, and pieces of it have landed in the valve. But try replacing the hose first. It helps to have someone with small arms, to reach around to connect it to the valve. Removing the entire cabin filter housing helps too. Clean out the valve at the SAP too, so you can be sure it is not sticking closed. I used carb cleaner to do that. If you do not get enough vacuum to open that valve, then you will have to replace the vacuum solenoid. But unless you had an issue like mine, where pieces of the vac line were being sucked into the solenoid, it should be OK. The solid section of that vac line, the plastic tube, is pretty expensive too, so I replaced the entire line with Teflon vac line, covered with braided stainless steel to withstand the heat. I think I already mentioned that somewhere in this thread. I found it on eBay. They sell it here:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/aeroqu...hoses,940.html
And here:
http://www.coleparmer.com/Category/S...878,4294950883
But Speedway also has an eBay store. This is where I got mine:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Aeroquip...#ht_1811wt_762
You will have to cut off the ends they have on the pieces they sell.
Now, I have not driven my car more than a few hundred miles with this stuff, so I can not say for sure it will stand the test of time. But it does have a high heat resistance, and I liked the idea of replacing that multi-piece assembly with a single line. There were too many places for the factory piece to fail. If yours is like mine, then you have a rubber line, connected with the plastic section (which I am guessing was used because of the heat in that section of the line), and then another connection to the second rubber line that ran to the SAP valve. The connectors at both ends of the plastic pipe were broken on mine, and the pipe had become so brittle that it was cracking and pieces of the plastic had broken off, and I found some lodged in the solenoid. So, the stainless shielded Teflon line was an experiment on my part, and if it held up, I was going to create a post about it. But it seems to be coming up more and more on the forums, so I guess it is starting to fail quite often on the older cars. I think this may be the source of vacuum leaks that people can't seem to find, even after replacing their other lines and intake pipes. But that is just speculation on my part. I had been getting codes for a long time, even though my other vac lines were fine. I only found this because my SAP started sounding a lot louder, because the valve was not opening. I thought the SAP itself was going bad. I know the PO of my car had replaced his SAP just before I bought it, because he gave me the old part. After I found this, I hooked up the old one, and it was fine, so I suspect this issue was occurring when he owned the car, and the BMW techs just replaced the SAP and called it a day. Sorry for the long post, but like you, I am rambling on a bit too. tL/dnr: replace the line first, before buying a new solenoid.
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:07 AM   #42
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MJLavelle,

Do you think if you had access to a air compressor with a blow gun and used a 9 Volt battery to activate your solenoid you might have been able to blow out the trash the solenoid?

I am also wondering if people have problems with this solenoid, they might be able to blow it out while still installed on the car? 1. to save money and 2. so they do not have to remove the solenoid??

I am just taking a guess and stabbing in the dark here, but if you could connect a piece of spare vacuum hose to the solenoid input, you could use the blow gun to pressurize the engine side of the solenoid and blow backward through the solenoid and possibly dislodge any trash that may be causing the solenoid to not close correctly?

You could even use the car to active the solenoid by doing this test at first cold start as the solenoid should be active for the first 90-120 seconds. You would need to disconnect the vacuum hose at the SAP check valve.

I know attaching the hose to the engine side of the solenoid might be hard, but probably easier than removing the solenoid??

As for the small check valve (not the solenoid), I have not had one in my hand, but I know the VW/Audi check valve that look like this BMW one have problems where they crack and leak vacuum all the time as well.

Seems that the small check valve and short vacuum hoses between the solenoid and the engine connection are prime suspects as well, but no fun to get your hands on?
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:53 AM   #43
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prezerved i will read later
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:44 PM   #44
Kirk330i
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Thanks for the further explanaition MJL. I have been anxious to get this fixed so have been cruising all the other forums/threads as well. The BavAuto web site has a great diagnostic article on the SAP system (thanks shanneba!!). It should be able to track any issues. I'm gong to try it asap, in particular steps 4-9 (as soon as I get my vacuum pump and gauge set back! Careful when lending tools to coworkers...). Anyway, thanks again to all. This thread has helped me by seeing what others have tried....now if you could just make my hands the size of an 8 year old, I could reach the solenoid! I'll report back in a few days with the results.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:47 AM   #45
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If I can tack on to this... I've had a couple of issues like this, mainly the bouncing idle at cold start down to almost dying (though not quite) that goes away and runs normally after warm up. Finally got a CEL, which showed a 1421 code. Cleared the code and it came back once. Cleared it again and the car has been fine the last few days with only one little idle bounce at a stoplight, but not the extreme dip that it has done before.

I listened for the vacuum pump running at startup and it seems to be running okay, though I didn't check further than that.

I can see a small crack in my intake boot at that elbow where the smaller tube splits off. Could this be the source of the problem? In other words, is it possible or likely that the rubber boots are the only problem? I'll change them out this weekend if so. In fact, I need to anyway with the car at 170k driven in Texas heat. At that age and mileage, I'm sure the one crack I can see isn't the only one.

Thanks.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:06 PM   #46
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P1421 - Secondary Air Injector Valve Circuit Short to Ground

Seems likely you have either a bid solenoid for the SAP vacuum circuit or possibly a wiring fault? If intermittent, might be a solenoid, but in any event, I would not expect this code to be related to any rough running, unless somehow your solenoid is stuck open? But that would be pretty easy to check by pulling the large hose of the SAP check valve on the passenger front corner of the engine.

Suggest you really look over the beginning of this thread carefully, as the most common problems are outlined there.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:22 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab View Post
If I can tack on to this... I've had a couple of issues like this, mainly the bouncing idle at cold start down to almost dying (though not quite) that goes away and runs normally after warm up. Finally got a CEL, which showed a 1421 code. Cleared the code and it came back once. Cleared it again and the car has been fine the last few days with only one little idle bounce at a stoplight, but not the extreme dip that it has done before.

I listened for the vacuum pump running at startup and it seems to be running okay, though I didn't check further than that.

I can see a small crack in my intake boot at that elbow where the smaller tube splits off. Could this be the source of the problem? In other words, is it possible or likely that the rubber boots are the only problem? I'll change them out this weekend if so. In fact, I need to anyway with the car at 170k driven in Texas heat. At that age and mileage, I'm sure the one crack I can see isn't the only one.

Thanks.
Mine also had the bad idle at cold start and eventually died most times. I changed my intake boots also thinking this could be it. No luck. I checked the hose on the SAP and it was busted and gushing air. I just got a new one in and will replace it soon. *fingers crossed* I read here that the vacuum line from the SAP valve also is an issue. Have you tried those yet??
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:38 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Simple test for the SAP check valve vacuum hose is to disconnect the small vacuum hose at the SAP check valve and either blow into the hose (you may need another length of hose and a nipple) and/or connect a hand vacuum pump up to the vacuum hose that connects to the SAP check valve.

You should not be able to blow/move air in this section and/or it should hold a vacuum. This hose has and electric check valve at the other end near the throttle body.
So...if I CAN blow thru the hose or it doesnt hold a vacuum then either the hose is
broken somewhere or the electric valve is bad right?
Sorry for the confusion. I'm NOT mechanically inclined.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:03 PM   #49
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Small hose to the SAP check value connected to a solenoid switch that should blow vacuum when the car it turned off. if you can blow vacuum into the small SAP check valve vacuum hose, either the vacuum hose is bad and/or you may have a problem with the solenoid (which is very hard to access as it is under the rear of the intake).

But you also have vacuum hoses that feed that solenoid and a check valve that can have issues.

If you want to fix your car, as it is a 1999 model, almost all of your rubber parts under the hood need to be replaced if original. This includes all your coolant hoses as well.

But in the short term, the most common failure points are the lower intake boot, the lower CCV oil return line, the SAP check valve vacuum lines and the DISA O-ring. If your DISA is original, it needs to be replaced at this point anyway.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:21 PM   #50
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Gonna have to try the upper and lower intake boot soon.

Been getting P0174 only once in awhile and only when it is raining or moist outside. Even then it is still running great so I suspect maybe a very minor rip in the boot somewhere.
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Old 02-09-2012, 03:40 AM   #51
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Quote from original post:
For those that cannot find the O-ring, the measurements are as follows for possibly match up:
Thickness - 3.5 mm
I.D. - 48 mm
O.D. - 55 mm
Preferred material - silicon, however, rubber may substitute


THIS IS NOT CORRECT FOR M54 ENGINES!! I bought this size O-ring and it was to small. However I stretched it on but the O-ring thickness (3.5mm) did not allow me to put the DISA back into the intake with ease.
As I needed to get the car back on the road (late at night) I found my self using emery paper on the O-ring to reduce the diameter and now I need to get a new DISA as the plastic cracked at the area where the bolt goes through the DISA in trying to bring the face of the DISA up to the manifold. In reality I should have measured up the part and put the DISA back in and purchased the correct size O-ring.

See photo for the size... (I'll let you be the judge)




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Old 02-09-2012, 05:14 AM   #52
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Sorry for the issue you ran into with your DISA. I should be able to confirm in the next few days if there is a correction that I need to make and I will make it. But the measurements I have are correct for the part that I have been provide.

As for replacing the DISA back into the intake, you should not need to used the screws to seat it, but it will be tight. The new O-ring will be tighter than the original and you should use silicon spray or a light coating of oil on it.

Also note that for many owners even if they replace the DISA O-ring to address the vacuum leak, the DISA make still need to be replaced for other reasons due to shaft wear and issues with vacuum actuator and electrical solenoid that actually control the DISA.

I am going to add info for an additional test to perform while the DISA is out of the car that will hopefully be simple and easy to do.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:27 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Small hose to the SAP check value connected to a solenoid switch that should blow vacuum when the car it turned off. if you can blow vacuum into the small SAP check valve vacuum hose, either the vacuum hose is bad and/or you may have a problem with the solenoid (which is very hard to access as it is under the rear of the intake).

But you also have vacuum hoses that feed that solenoid and a check valve that can have issues.

If you want to fix your car, as it is a 1999 model, almost all of your rubber parts under the hood need to be replaced if original. This includes all your coolant hoses as well.

But in the short term, the most common failure points are the lower intake boot, the lower CCV oil return line, the SAP check valve vacuum lines and the DISA O-ring. If your DISA is original, it needs to be replaced at this point anyway.

Thanks. I have already changed both intake boots and will be having the Oil separator and hoses changed on Monday. I will have my mechanic check the vacuum lines also. The DISA O-ring I am waiting to be shipped to me. Hope the DISA device is in good shape still. Its about $200 for that little thing.
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:09 AM   #54
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The original DISA part number for the M54 2.5 litre engine 11617502269 which is now replaced with 11617544806. The O-ring ID is 58mm OD I suspect should be no greater than 62mm, considering the O-ring I had was 3mm thick and this was to large.

Last edited by Schnake; 02-10-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:39 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Schnake View Post
My original DISA part number is for the M54 engine 11617502269 which is now replaced with 11617544806.
The above part number is for the 2.5L engine. For my 3.0L, it's 11617544805 (last digit is 5 not 6).
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:44 PM   #56
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The above part number is for the 2.5L engine. For my 3.0L, it's 11617544805 (last digit is 5 not 6).
Good pick up... I will edit my post to not cause anyone any problems. Thanks
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:31 PM   #57
jfoj
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Schnake,

The Fel-Pro O-ring is 1/8" cross section and is too large. I have a chance to work on another E46 today and can see how the O-ring will roll. I believe that 3/32" cross section is about correct, however, I have some more parts coming soon and will verify for sure. Then I need to see if I can easily source a part that can be picked up at a local parts store easily.

Also for everyone to not, you need to also check carefully that the DISA vacuum accusatory diaphragm is not blown.

I have updated the beginning of the thread with update/pending O-ring info and info on testing the DISA vacuum actuator.

Apologies to anyone regarding the Fel-Pro part, I should have verified personally.

Again, this thread is a work in progress and feedback is welcome.
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Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

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Old 02-12-2012, 02:03 PM   #58
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I follow the post .... forward .... I have changed all that you say me ..... I only need the vacuum line of sap
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:06 PM   #59
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vanos .... sensors. ccv. air temperature sensor. disa. coils...
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:50 AM   #60
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You can use this, cheap and they work:
http://www.oringsandmore.com/servlet/the-958/Viton-Rubber-Orings-/Detail
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