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Old 05-23-2012, 12:26 AM   #1501
NFRs2000nyc
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Maybe, but not necessarily his story by itself.

There's no dispute that Z shot M. The question is, was it self defense? If not, then Z committed a crime. If it was, then Z didn't commit a crime.

So a judge/jury has to listen to Z's story, look at the physical evidence, listen to the witnesses and lawyers and decide a few things. The solution set isn't that complicated, assuming he's been charged correctly:

- Z is telling the truth, and any reasonable person in Z's position would have felt the need to defend themselves = Z is not guilty.

- Z is telling the truth, but was unreasonable in feeling the need to defend himself = Z is guilty.

- Z is not telling the truth, but the jury cannot conclude beyond a reasonable doubt what really happened was a crime = Z is not guilty.

- Z is not telling the truth and the jury does conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that what really happened was a crime = Z is guilty.

So assessing Z's story is only step 1 in the final outcome. Here's something that will really make the Z-haters heads explode: its possible Z is lying but still isn't guilty.
It's possible that OJ shot Martin, but it doesn't matter. Zimmerman's story is actually not that important. The sheer amount of physical evidence (or lack of it for the prosecution) is more than enough to let him walk. This case will NEVER make it to trial. There is simply no evidence.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:57 AM   #1502
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It's possible that OJ shot Martin, but it doesn't matter. Zimmerman's story is actually not that important. The sheer amount of physical evidence (or lack of it for the prosecution) is more than enough to let him walk. This case will NEVER make it to trial. There is simply no evidence.
the biggest fail is that the prosecutor is overcharging him. i do not think that there is any way that they will get a 2nd degree conviction. manslaughter should have been pursued.

a friend was on a jury where a son and a friend beat the kid's father to death with a baseball bat in the basement and shoved his body into the crawl space. both were guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but the state's attorney brought the wrong charges against them, so they had to let one of them walk free. complete and utter incompetence by the SA.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:18 AM   #1503
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It's possible that OJ shot Martin, but it doesn't matter. Zimmerman's story is actually not that important. The sheer amount of physical evidence (or lack of it for the prosecution) is more than enough to let him walk. This case will NEVER make it to trial. There is simply no evidence.
Time to backpedal yet?

Quote:
Trayvon Martin shooting: Witnesses change stories ahead of Zimmerman trial

By Dylan Stableford | The Lookout – 1 hr 37 mins ago

Four witnesses in the Trayvon Martin case have changed their stories, some "in ways that may damage" George Zimmerman, the Orlando Sentinel reports.

According to records released last week in the second-degree murder case, the witnesses--all of them neighbors--were interviewed multiple times by police and special prosecutors about what they saw on Feb. 26, the night Zimmerman fatally shot Martin in Sanford, Fla.

Four days after the shooting, one woman told police she "saw two guys running" and then "a fistfight--just fists, I don't know who was hitting who." But on March 20, she told investigators she saw just one person.

"I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white," the woman, "Witness 2," said. "I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses. I just know I saw a person out there."

Another witness, who was initially interviewed on March 20, said she saw two people on the ground immediately after the shooting, but was not sure who was on top.

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

A third witness, "Witness 6," told police on the night of the shooting he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style." He said the light-skinned man was calling for help. Interviewed later by investigators, he said he was not sure who was calling for help, and is not sure any punches were thrown.

A fourth witness also interviewed on the night of the shooting said he heard the shooting, ran outside, and saw Zimmerman standing with "blood on the back of his head." According to "Witness 13," Zimmerman told him that Martin "was beating up on me, so I had to shoot him."

A month later, the same witness described Zimmerman's demeanor: "[It was] not like 'I can't believe I just shot someone!' It was more like, 'Just tell my wife I shot somebody,' like it was nothing."
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:33 PM   #1504
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This is turning into My Cousin Vinny.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:52 PM   #1505
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It's possible that OJ shot Martin, but it doesn't matter. Zimmerman's story is actually not that important. The sheer amount of physical evidence (or lack of it for the prosecution) is more than enough to let him walk. This case will NEVER make it to trial. There is simply no evidence.
It's naive to call Z's story "not that important". To the contrary, it's central to the entire case. Almost all the prosecutions efforts will likely be built around trying to disprove his story so they can convince the jury to buy their story. The defense's efforts will be to rebut the prosecution and prop up Z's story.

Just about everything revolves around his story. That makes it of paramount importance, which is the opposite of "not that important".

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Time to backpedal yet?
None of those "witnesses" stated in their original or revised version who threw the first punch. They neither prove, nor disprove Z's version of events. Changing their stories, esp mentioning they're changing them after seeing TV coverage, will shred their credibility in court.

It remains to be seen how important their statements are to each side's efforts in court.

The fact remains, we dont know who threw the first punch. We dont know who physically attacked who.

Without knowing that, everything else is speculation.
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Old 05-23-2012, 02:12 PM   #1506
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Time to backpedal yet?
hey...people who went to to look for WMD's in iraq are now changing their stories to "we found a lot of WMD's in iraq but we weren't sure at the time because we didn't have our contacts on at the time"
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:54 PM   #1507
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It's naive to call Z's story "not that important". To the contrary, it's central to the entire case. Almost all the prosecutions efforts will likely be built around trying to disprove his story so they can convince the jury to buy their story. The defense's efforts will be to rebut the prosecution and prop up Z's story.

Just about everything revolves around his story. That makes it of paramount importance, which is the opposite of "not that important".



None of those "witnesses" stated in their original or revised version who threw the first punch. They neither prove, nor disprove Z's version of events. Changing their stories, esp mentioning they're changing them after seeing TV coverage, will shred their credibility in court.

It remains to be seen how important their statements are to each side's efforts in court.

The fact remains, we dont know who threw the first punch. We dont know who physically attacked who.

Without knowing that, everything else is speculation.
No. Disproving his story is NOT enough for a trial to go on. They need actual EVIDENCE that will allow them to PROVE that Zimmerman is guilty. Zimmerman can say he was f****ng a unicorn and Martin was poked in the heart with the horn. That doesn't matter. The prosecution needs to prove his motive, his actions, etc, which they will NOT be able to do. However, none of the above matters, since 99% of the evidence supports Zimmerman's story.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:43 PM   #1508
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Poll: Only 47% of Blacks Believe Zimmerman Is Guilty Of Murder
http://newsone.com/2016970/poll-40-o...-self-defense/
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:37 PM   #1509
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What a joke.
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:03 AM   #1510
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No. Disproving his story is NOT enough for a trial to go on. They need actual EVIDENCE that will allow them to PROVE that Zimmerman is guilty. Zimmerman can say he was f****ng a unicorn and Martin was poked in the heart with the horn. That doesn't matter. The prosecution needs to prove his motive, his actions, etc, which they will NOT be able to do. However, none of the above matters, since 99% of the evidence supports Zimmerman's story.
Wrong.

You couldn't be more wrong about the importance of GZ's story. Well, you could be as wrong as Lair, but that's so far past wrong it's not even sensible.

There's no doubt GZ killed TM.

The doubt is whether it was a justified killing or not.

GZ's story is "it was self defense". If GZ's story can be disproven, or his story can be proven but his actions considered unreasonable, then he murdered/manslaughtered TM.

Because GZ killing TM isn't in doubt, the ONLY question is whether the DA can disprove his story about how it went down, or convince the jury that any of them in the same position wouldn't have felt justified in using deadly force to defend themselves.

So it's really all about his story. If he didn't have a self defense story to begin with, none of us would ever have heard of him.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:41 AM   #1511
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There's no doubt GZ killed TM.
I'm going to call this into doubt. I think Martin is still alive somewhere, probably an Elvis impersonator in Vegas. He used Zimmerman to stage his own death, upon which he could disappear from a lifestyle he was unhappy with. Zimmerman is an unfortunate fall guy

It's all a scam.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:45 AM   #1512
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I'm going to call this into doubt. I think Martin is still alive somewhere, probably an Elvis impersonator in Vegas. He used Zimmerman to stage his own death, upon which he could disappear from a lifestyle he was unhappy with. Zimmerman is an unfortunate fall guy

It's all a scam.
Along with 2-Pac
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:22 AM   #1513
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Along with 2-Pac
didn't you hear? 2pac's hologram was just shot
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:05 AM   #1514
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I'm going to call this into doubt. I think Martin is still alive somewhere, probably an Elvis impersonator in Vegas. He used Zimmerman to stage his own death, upon which he could disappear from a lifestyle he was unhappy with. Zimmerman is an unfortunate fall guy

It's all a scam.

What's the motive?

Insurance? Infamy? Energizing the hoody base?
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:07 AM   #1515
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Martin was actually shot by a black onlooker who was listening to 50 cent
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:16 AM   #1516
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I'm going to call this into doubt. I think Martin is still alive somewhere, probably an Elvis impersonator in Vegas. He used Zimmerman to stage his own death, upon which he could disappear from a lifestyle he was unhappy with. Zimmerman is an unfortunate fall guy

It's all a scam.
The aliens took him home.

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didn't you hear? 2pac's hologram was just shot
With the safety protocols disengaged, even a holographic bullet can kill.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:20 AM   #1517
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Martin was actually shot by a black onlooker who was listening to 50 cent
the "***** on the knoll" theory?

hint: it's alliterative
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Old 05-24-2012, 12:13 PM   #1518
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Wrong.

You couldn't be more wrong about the importance of GZ's story. Well, you could be as wrong as Lair, but that's so far past wrong it's not even sensible.

There's no doubt GZ killed TM.

The doubt is whether it was a justified killing or not.

GZ's story is "it was self defense". If GZ's story can be disproven, or his story can be proven but his actions considered unreasonable, then he murdered/manslaughtered TM.

Because GZ killing TM isn't in doubt, the ONLY question is whether the DA can disprove his story about how it went down, or convince the jury that any of them in the same position wouldn't have felt justified in using deadly force to defend themselves.

So it's really all about his story. If he didn't have a self defense story to begin with, none of us would ever have heard of him.
Again, no. You are not understanding how the law works. What if you or I marched down there right now, and confessed to killing Treyvon. Would be be charged because of our story? No. Zimmerman's defense (don't call it a story) is self defense. His ACCOUNT of the situation is his story, but is technically, irrelevant. He could have just claimed self defense and then never said another word, and since innocent until proven guilty, the prosecution has to find proof to convict him.
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:36 PM   #1519
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Again, no. You are not understanding how the law works. What if you or I marched down there right now, and confessed to killing Treyvon. Would be be charged because of our story? No. Zimmerman's defense (don't call it a story) is self defense. His ACCOUNT of the situation is his story, but is technically, irrelevant. He could have just claimed self defense and then never said another word, and since innocent until proven guilty, the prosecution has to find proof to convict him.
Again, wrong. You're completely out of touch with the reality of how this works.

The DA doesnt have to prove GZ killed TM. The issue here is if the killing was justified.

If the jury hears that GZ killed TM and he/his lawyers sit there in silence, what do you think is gonna happen to him? He's gonna get fried. The jury isn't going to jump to the conclusion that GZ must have had a good reason for what he did.

He has to tell his story. The DA (apparently) will attempt to disprove it. The defense will attempt to support it or at least discredit the DA's attacks.

Through this whole process, from the start of the investigation that night to wherever it ends (acquittal, conviction, sentencing, appeals, etc), the believability of GZs story about what happened is the central focus of everything.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:38 PM   #1520
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Again, wrong. You're completely out of touch with the reality of how this works.

The DA doesnt have to prove GZ killed TM. The issue here is if the killing was justified.

If the jury hears that GZ killed TM and he/his lawyers sit there in silence, what do you think is gonna happen to him? He's gonna get fried. The jury isn't going to jump to the conclusion that GZ must have had a good reason for what he did.

He has to tell his story. The DA (apparently) will attempt to disprove it. The defense will attempt to support it or at least discredit the DA's attacks.

Through this whole process, from the start of the investigation that night to wherever it ends (acquittal, conviction, sentencing, appeals, etc), the believability of GZs story about what happened is the central focus of everything.
What the hell are you talking about? Now you are literally pulling sh!t out of your ass. During a trial, the defense does NOTHING. They only do something after the prosecution (if) has a leg to stand on. Did you not watch the OJ trial? The defense's job is to....get ready...DEFEND. If there is nothing coming from the prosecution, there is nothing to defend.

What jury? You do realize that the judge first will have to approve the case to go to trial (watch my cousin vinny to refresh your memory.) If there insufficient evidence on the prosecution's side, there IS NO TRIAL, THERE IS NO JURY.
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