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Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning

Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

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Old 06-26-2012, 08:44 PM   #81
TerraPhantm
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Thanks for the explanation Alex. I meant to delete that "double the voltage" thought - one of the documents mentioned that the secondary potentiometer produces "exactly" half the voltage of the primary, but that doesn't actually seem to be the case based on other documents.

MS43 might be the way to go at those prices, though the 2.8L motors would need a custom tune since there's no 2.8L M54. I assume dinan never made an M52TU throttle body? I wonder if Alpina did (though even if they did, they'd never sell it).
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:04 PM   #82
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Ha! Its nice to hear somebody else bring up the same ideas I've had... its validating! Getting a bigger throttle body on the M52TU has been a multi-year obsession for me. I'm not sure what my fascination is, but I feel this overwhelming desire to remedy that poor engineering decision.

Anyway... I did research a few years ago on both the Dinan and Alpina throttle body options. The Dinan TB is a no-go. They only made a throttle body for the 325 and 330. Surprisingly, they offered two different sizes instead of just one. I was never able to confirm the size differences, but my best research attempts revealed that they were only 2 mm off from one-another in bore diameter.

As for the Alpina TB... that one felt like "the girl who got away". I've always felt that would have been a viable solution to our anemic throttle bodies, but I was never able to get any reliable information on it. Alpina did use a special throttle body -as well as a custom intake manifold. Also, from what little I've gathered, they removed the partial drive-by-wire throttle system in favor of a fully mechanical system. They also dissolved the DISA assembly in favor of a high flow intake manifold which has more in common with the M52 intake manifold off the e36. Its a very cool looking assembly, but I was never able to find either the intake manifold or the throttle body for sale online. Also, I have no idea how they controlled the traction control.

Side bar, I've been meaning to ask you something TerraPhantm:

Do you think its possible to integrate the MS43 into the 323 and 328s without swapping out the wiring harness? My thought is that if we could reduce the cost of an MS43 swap, that would solve our problems of a smaller throttle body. If someone can avoid buying a wiring harness from a 325 or 330, that would save a substantial cost. I'd love to map the differences between the two DMEs and figure out how similar/dissimilar the two really are...

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Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
Thanks for the explanation Alex. I meant to delete that "double the voltage" thought - one of the documents mentioned that the secondary potentiometer produces "exactly" half the voltage of the primary, but that doesn't actually seem to be the case based on other documents.

MS43 might be the way to go at those prices, though the 2.8L motors would need a custom tune since there's no 2.8L M54. I assume dinan never made an M52TU throttle body? I wonder if Alpina did (though even if they did, they'd never sell it).
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:18 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post

Do you think its possible to integrate the MS43 into the 323 and 328s without swapping out the wiring harness? My thought is that if we could reduce the cost of an MS43 swap, that would solve our problems of a smaller throttle body. If someone can avoid buying a wiring harness from a 325 or 330, that would save a substantial cost. I'd love to map the differences between the two DMEs and figure out how similar/dissimilar the two really are...
I actually posted in your other thread. I do think it's possible since on a cursory look it does look like that for the most parts the signals are the same with a few pins jumbled. It's just going to be a bit of a project to correlate everything

Edit:

Well the Alpina does seem to be using an M52 motor (if you look closely, you'll notice it's single VANOS). However, it also seems to use the MS42 ECU - meaning it should be possible to convert it completely to a mechanical linkage (which would perhaps allow the usage of an S52 TB w/ some physical modification). Someone who's a bit more experienced at disassembling ECUs than me might be able to figure it out. (It might actually be possible to run an S52 directly off an Alpina map since the displacement is pretty close, but that's for another thread lol)
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:37 PM   #84
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TerraPhantm,

Ill just reply here, since this is likely the most fitting location.

That's fantastic news about the similarities between the two DMEs and their wiring harnesses. If X60003 and X60004 can be modified to work without a new harness that will save a bunch of money on an MS43 swap.

Someone on the forum already went through the trouble of posting the pin-outs for the MS43 so that cuts the amount of work down considerably, but its still going to be a pain.

Determining the differences between the two DMEs would be extraordinarily difficult to do alone, I could really use some help. Would you or anyone else be willing to help work out the differences?

Thanks for brainstorming!

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Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
I actually posted in your other thread. I do think it's possible since on a cursory look it does look like that for the most parts the signals are the same with a few pins jumbled. It's just going to be a bit of a project to correlate everything
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:44 PM   #85
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I can help...but I would need a crash course in wiring schematics 101.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:53 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
TerraPhantm,

Ill just reply here, since this is likely the most fitting location.

That's fantastic news about the similarities between the two DMEs and their wiring harnesses. If X60003 and X60004 can be modified to work without a new harness that will save a bunch of money on an MS43 swap.

Someone on the forum already went through the trouble of posting the pin-outs for the MS43 so that cuts the amount of work down considerably, but its still going to be a pain.

Determining the differences between the two DMEs would be extraordinarily difficult to do alone, I could really use some help. Would you or anyone else be willing to help work out the differences?

Thanks for brainstorming!



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I am willing to help during my free time, which admittedly isn't much these days thanks to an internship I started - I'll see what I can do though

Edit: taking a closer look at the differences - it seems the MS42 DME had a few diagnostic signals that are not present on the MS43. The MS42 has wires for the "engine start signal", oil presssure, battery voltage, etc... so it seems that some signals are monitored differently between the two cars. I don't think this is a show stopper, I think those wires just ultimately end up getting wired directly to the cluster or something.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:27 PM   #87
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Awesome! This is all good news! Thanks for offering to help -both of you! And Hornung418, I'm sure I can bring you up to speed if you're willing to learn

Should I start a new thread for this?
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:28 PM   #88
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Let's do it!
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:43 PM   #89
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mk, ill set it up as soon as I get home. ill PM both of you guys with my game plan as well.

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Old 06-26-2012, 10:44 PM   #90
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Hey Alex - I found a parts catalogue for the Alpina B3 3.3: http://www.thealpinaregister.com/dow...e46%20b333.pdf

Guess what - it used the same throttle body as the M52TUs during the MS42 run. When they switched to the MS43, they stuck the throttle body from the V8 BMWs in there.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:07 AM   #91
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Thats crazy! Hmmm... I wonder why Alpina chose to stick with that anemic throttle body? Maybe its different for FI applications.

I remember watching some 'pimp my ride' knock off video where this guy got his e46 330 boosted. They threw in the HPF kit with all sorts of random performance goodies. One of the things they did was swap out the stock DISA manifold for one off an e36 M52B28. The tech putting it in said that the DISA valve was much better for NA applications, but generally the engines performed significantly better with a standard intake manifold. Perhaps a larger TB is counterproductive in a FI application...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
Hey Alex - I found a parts catalogue for the Alpina B3 3.3: http://www.thealpinaregister.com/dow...e46%20b333.pdf

Guess what - it used the same throttle body as the M52TUs during the MS42 run. When they switched to the MS43, they stuck the throttle body from the V8 BMWs in there.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:19 AM   #92
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Okay guys, the new thread is up here:

MS42 < MS43 Compatibility Thread
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:41 AM   #93
TerraPhantm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
Thats crazy! Hmmm... I wonder why Alpina chose to stick with that anemic throttle body? Maybe its different for FI applications.

I remember watching some 'pimp my ride' knock off video where this guy got his e46 330 boosted. They threw in the HPF kit with all sorts of random performance goodies. One of the things they did was swap out the stock DISA manifold for one off an e36 M52B28. The tech putting it in said that the DISA valve was much better for NA applications, but generally the engines performed significantly better with a standard intake manifold. Perhaps a larger TB is counterproductive in a FI application...
But the B3 3.3 and B3S were both N/A - I am surprised too honestly. You'd think that if a 330 "needs" a bigger TB, a 3.3 liter engine making 50 more hp would need an even larger one.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:58 AM   #94
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Totally agree! Thats just wacky!

I've been told that planned obsolescence is a myth and illegal... but sometimes... sometimes I look at the things BMW did to the 323 (especially in comparison to the 325) and think:

"there's no way any self-respecting person thinks this was a wise engineering decision."

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Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
But the B3 3.3 and B3S were both N/A - I am surprised too honestly. You'd think that if a 330 "needs" a bigger TB, a 3.3 liter engine making 50 more hp would need an even larger one.
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Old 07-02-2012, 02:05 PM   #95
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Okay, so if anyone is still following this thread, I wanted to post an update:

I think I've found a way to retrofit the M54B30 throttle body onto the M52TU with an M54B30 intake manifold swap! An MS43 DME swap on the cheap.

While working on my microcontroller DBW interface, I had a thought: if an MS43 swap has come down in price then my DBW interface would be pointless. The more R&D I completed on the DBW interface, the more I realized it was going to cost upwards of $250 plus the buyer would have to pay for an e-gas pedal (~$100) and an M54 throttle body (~$100) for a total of $450. After doing some poking around I found that the cost of an MS43 swap is around $650.

Since I'm just an enthusiast with a bit of technical knowledge, I cant possibly compete with factory level reliability. The best and safest way to retrofit DBW (which I believe to be the only way to preserve daily driver functions and utilize the M54B30 throttle body) is to use the factory DBW system.

So, I stopped doing R&D on my DBW microcontroller and decided to instead try to reduce the the cost of an MS43 swap.

The must haves of an MS43 swap are:
- MS43 DME <03/2003
- Matching EWS*
- Matching key*
- Matching ignition lock cylinder*
- Throttle body
- E-gas pedal
- Various pins and connectors**
Estimated Total: ~$650
Conditional Total (no key, ignition cylinder, or connectors): ~$400

*If you have DME programming knowledge or access to a shop that can get into the DME and EWS, these things can be excluded saving you ~$200
**If you can get the connectors for the throttle body and e-gas pedal that will cut out around ~$50

TerraPhantm, Hornung418, and I spent the last week and a half researching whether or not the MS43 can be retrofitted to the M52TU without purchasing a new wiring harness. Everything we found says that it can with minimal effort. Now we just need someone to try it. Any takers?
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Old 10-21-2012, 09:09 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
TerraPhantm, Hornung418, and I spent the last week and a half researching whether or not the MS43 can be retrofitted to the M52TU without purchasing a new wiring harness. Everything we found says that it can with minimal effort. Now we just need someone to try it. Any takers?
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:33 PM   #97
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I've got a deposit down on all the parts necessary. Updates should come in the "MS42 -> MS43 Swap" Thread with in the year. Tuning will have to be worked out because there is no stock tune on the MS43 for 2.8L.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:41 AM   #98
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I've got a deposit down on all the parts necessary. Updates should come in the "MS42 -> MS43 Swap" Thread with in the year. Tuning will have to be worked out because there is no stock tune on the MS43 for 2.8L.
Throw an 89.6mm crank in there and the 330 tune will be perfect
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