E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Suspension & Braking Forum by BimmerWorld

Suspension & Braking Forum by BimmerWorld
Have some questions about suspension or brake setups for your E46 BMW? Get all your answers here!
Sponsored by BimmerWorld

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 4 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 05-08-2011, 11:03 PM   #21
mach.schnell
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Amish country, PA
Posts: 689
My Ride: 08/2000 330Cic x2
Quote:
Originally Posted by mach.schnell View Post
At the moment, we think the motion of the control arm might interfere with reinforcement plate depending upon the model.
Nope. That ain't it.

I've been tracking down various part numbers for the ZHP suspension kit tagged with a from date of 09/2001 and which BMW NA swears will not fit my car (which is admittedly a 'vert).

For the 330Cic 08/00 and 09/01, the part numbers are identical for the:

Axle
Reinforcement Plate
Left & Right King Pin
Left & Right Standard Strut
Even the Left & Right Standard Wishbone part numbers are identical.
In addition, the left and Right Tie Rods are the exact same from 09/1998 on.

Given this I don't see why BMW says the sport (i.e. metal ball joint) wishbones for 09/01 can't be used, even though there are no "sport" wishbones listed for ZSP cars before 11/00.

The Steering Rack does change over time:
32136753438 From 04/1999 To 04/2001
32136755065 From 04/2001 To 09/2001
32136757651 From 09/2001
But how any changes in the rack would have an impact on metal v. non-metal ball joints is beyond me, especially since none of these parts are part of any separate "sports suspension" package listing.

So maybe the front sway bar is the problem? (Nope)
08/00 Std Stabilizer bar 31351097178 (no dates)
08/00 Sports Suspension 31351094542 (no dates)
08/00 Front swing support 31356780847
11/00 Exact same
04/01 Exact same
09/11 EXACT same
09/11 Suspension retrofit kit EXACT same (noting that no Front swing support is part of this)

So the front sway bar parts have nothing to do with it.

Finally, the sports package wishbones for 09/01 are exactly the same ones as in the retro-fit sport package kit. But get this - RealOEM has different "From dates" !!! (for the same part).

When listed in the performance retro fit kit, the sport wishbones 31122282121 & 31122282122 have a "From date" of 09/01. But when the exact same parts are looked at on the regular individual parts diagram, they are tagged with a "From date" of 11/00.

This tells me the metal ball joint wishbones were first mfg. in 11/00, and the kit was put together in 09/11, and the dates really have nothing to do with actual fitment, but that BMW is date-anal.

The only thing left is the front coil spring: for which ALL of the different mfg. dates say "contact your dealer" since it's obvious the springs have to be matched with the front struts, which is why vendors of the retro-kit say you need to "upgrade your springs" since springs aren't in the kit, but different struts are. (So follow your favorite "tuner's" advice.)

So... my current suspicions are that BMW (and hence Meyle) can't legally say the metal ball joint wishbones will work on earlier mfg. cars even if they do, because no federal NHTSA tests were "retro" done for these ZSP cars.

I hope to have the 08/00 ZSP 'vert wishbones physically measured against the ZHP 09/01 wishbones to see if there are any actual dimensional differences between the parts. Stay tuned for the results (if anyone cares).

PS: OP sorry if this seems a thread hijack, but I thought the Meyle comment on "dangerous handling" should be addressed, and if there isn't any why on the BMW side, it would seem Meyle is just spouting the party line.

PPS: Great pics.


EDIT: Thanks for the anecdotes guys, but the cut off date seems to be for cars before 11/2000, and since all your build dates are later, the metal ball joints pose no theoretical problems.

Last edited by mach.schnell; 05-08-2011 at 11:08 PM.
mach.schnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 02:01 AM   #22
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,223
My Ride: M54B30
For the record, I installed the Meyles. Everything went well. Car handles well, no rubbing of any parts. I used BMW nuts instead of the Meyle ones. Also, I weighed (using a digital scale) the stock BMW control arms at 7.5 lbs each (with bracket and bushing attached) and the Meyle arms (also with bracket and bushing attached at 8.5 lbs. So the Meyle arms weigh ONE pound more on each side. I think this shows that either BMW engineering/casting is better or that Meyle used heavy duty stuff. I'd be willing to bet BMW stuff is just better engineered. My braking vibrations stopped but I think this was due to improperly installed Meyle HD bushings on the stock BMW lollipops. The bushings werent as far on the arm as the way they came from Meyle. (maybe 2 or 3mm off) All I know is I have no more braking vibrations. If the vibrations come back, I know Meyle bushings are sh!t and I'd make the switch to poly.

Also I will note that the BMW balljoints (whether they're metal or nylon--can someone chime in?) did not show any play or damage whatsoever. I tore the factory balljoint rubbers with my pickle fork so I won't be reselling these. I'll see if I can recycle them..
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 06:13 AM   #23
shanneba
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,099
My Ride: 2003 330Ci
In the BMW TIS, it shows a difference in the control arms at the end where the bushing attaches:Maybe that is what changed on the newer versions?

http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/06/73/30



Important!
Control arms with pin shape (A) must be replaced!
Only control arm with pin shape (B) may be reinstalled!



Mark out measurement (A) at bottom at control arm pin.
A = 290.9 ± 1 mm
__________________
Join BMWCCA
Discounts on new and CPO cars.
Most Dealers offer a parts discount, BMP Design 10% off
shanneba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 01:25 PM   #24
mach.schnell
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Amish country, PA
Posts: 689
My Ride: 08/2000 330Cic x2
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanneba View Post
In the BMW TIS, it shows a difference in the control arms at the end ...
Good find! The same information is in the Bentley Manual on page 310-23 So that concern should have been addressed a long time ago in the allowed and listed part numbers data base. One would just need to worry about those BMW's in the wild that still have the failed control arm shape. (May God guard those who use a general non-BMW experienced shop.)

ALSO: I finally found the design change in the reinforcement plate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentley
After 02/2001, the front reinforcement plate was produced with lager cast depressions to accommodate the larger (66mm) front control arm bushings. The difference ... can only be discerned by removing the plate.

In order to safely use an early production plate in a car with larger bushings, insert appropriate sized washers between frame rails and reinforcement plate at bolts A (see diagram)
So, the date 09/2001 listed in the ZHP kit protects cars mfg. before 02/2001 that have the older designed reinforcement plate for 60 mm bushings. Given I have an 08/2000, my guess is I have the older plate, and would need to insert the spacers (washers) as directed. Or else buy a new plate, if I put on 66mm bushings. So it's not the control arm (per-se) but the bushings.

(Off to track down bushing part#s and dates - egad)

Last edited by mach.schnell; 05-20-2011 at 08:19 PM.
mach.schnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 03:12 PM   #25
BimmerFerret
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cardinal Country, KY
Posts: 1,882
My Ride: 08 G37S, 07 Sky RL
Send a message via Skype™ to BimmerFerret
I have the Meyle HD bushings on my car and am very satisfied with how they are performing.
__________________
2008 Infiniti G37S - Big Brakes, Limited Slip, etc.
2007 Sky Redline
1998 Honda Civic EX Sedan


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxlo View Post
Class of '03, yet you're still an idiot. Whats your point? Do you really think that you're somehow a god because you joined a site before someone else? ****ing nerd.
BimmerFerret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 03:59 PM   #26
mach.schnell
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Amish country, PA
Posts: 689
My Ride: 08/2000 330Cic x2
Well let me see if I can make some sense out of this. The Bentley Manual states the front reinforcement plate wasn't designed for 66mm front control arm bushing mounts until 02/2001, and BMWfansInfo (couldn't find this at RealOEM) lists this redesigned plate as part 51717028433 with a from date of 02/2001. But most of the earlier E46 models before 02/2001 use 66mm control arm bushing brackets with the old plate 51718260810 anyway.

How so?

If you have the earlier reinforcement plate 51718260810 (the old one not designed for 66mm control arm bushing brackets) but are using 66mm bushings, you must also use the "circlip" 31106757145 which is BMW's spacer (washer) to lower the earlier dated reinforcement plate. These "circlips" are not used if you have the re-designed (post 01/2001) reinforcement plate. Yet note, BMW must have had a lot of these ordered, because post 02/2001 cars can still have the old reinforcment plate.

So whoever is "upgrading" from 60mm bushings to 66mm bushings, lookout for which style of reinforcement plate you have. You can create "dangerous handling" conditions if that plate isn't properly lowered with the circlips.



(And I'm sure someone will let me know if I've misinterpreted this.)

Last edited by mach.schnell; 05-10-2011 at 12:52 AM. Reason: fixed dates
mach.schnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 11:51 AM   #27
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,223
My Ride: M54B30
Good info. Pleased to report no issues with my plate or control arms. Though I will say that after my SECOND pair of Meyle HD control arm bushings (second time with NEW arms) my braking vibration has came back slightly. I will install new rotors and pads this weekend to see if that cures it (I have absolutely no idea what rotors and pads are on the car now, but after careful examination, they do not appear to be OEM. I have a feeling theyre Chinese OPParts brand. That would explain a lot. Other than that, my current rotors and pads are within spec and were brand new when I bought the car last year.

I ordered Brembo rotors and Textar pads.
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 12:00 PM   #28
new//M3fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 2,663
My Ride: 77' 924 87' E30
Quote:
Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
For the record, I installed the Meyles. Everything went well. Car handles well, no rubbing of any parts. I used BMW nuts instead of the Meyle ones. Also, I weighed (using a digital scale) the stock BMW control arms at 7.5 lbs each (with bracket and bushing attached) and the Meyle arms (also with bracket and bushing attached at 8.5 lbs. So the Meyle arms weigh ONE pound more on each side. I think this shows that either BMW engineering/casting is better or that Meyle used heavy duty stuff. I'd be willing to bet BMW stuff is just better engineered. My braking vibrations stopped but I think this was due to improperly installed Meyle HD bushings on the stock BMW lollipops. The bushings werent as far on the arm as the way they came from Meyle. (maybe 2 or 3mm off) All I know is I have no more braking vibrations. If the vibrations come back, I know Meyle bushings are sh!t and I'd make the switch to poly.

Also I will note that the BMW balljoints (whether they're metal or nylon--can someone chime in?) did not show any play or damage whatsoever. I tore the factory balljoint rubbers with my pickle fork so I won't be reselling these. I'll see if I can recycle them..
The BMW ZHP control arms would be more in line with the meyle Hd's. The non zhp arms have plastic inserts in where the tie rod ball pivots and are not as thick. The ZHP and Meyle are Thicker and have steel ball joint sleeves instead of plastic.

I would be curious to see how much a set of ZHP CA's weigh
__________________
<-- Mango *F-BOMBS IN SIGS*
Bilstein HD's | E30 M3 FCAB's | H&R OE Sports | F+R strut bars | Self tuned 027 93 octane chip | KoseiK1's on R888's | + crazy OCD maintenance
new//M3fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 08:23 PM   #29
mach.schnell
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Amish country, PA
Posts: 689
My Ride: 08/2000 330Cic x2
Quote:
Originally Posted by newe46fan View Post
...The ZHP and Meyle are Thicker and have steel ball joint sleeves instead of plastic.
Technically, nylon is not plastic, but perhaps I shouldn't quibble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newe46fan View Post
...I would be curious to see how much a set of ZHP CA's weigh
I will do that for you when mine arrive.
mach.schnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 01:55 PM   #30
OrientBlau
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,454
My Ride: 2003 330i
I love looking at auto part photos!

doesnt matter what it is... Im just plain old fascinated by looking at anything mechnical. It could be worn brake pads and I'll stare at them intently until I force my self to stop analyzing and studying every aspect of them.
__________________
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. - Arthur Schopenhauer
OrientBlau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 12:38 PM   #31
mach.schnell
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Amish country, PA
Posts: 689
My Ride: 08/2000 330Cic x2
Finally put the ZHP control arms on my 01 'vert with Rogue Engineering 66mm. Bushings.

HOLY CRAP. The thing drives like a new Z4 - like it's glued to a metal rail down the middle of the twisty. 65+ on cloverleafes, before the back end feels a bit slippy, but that's with all season tires and stock rear subframe mounts, which will soon be replaced with M3 (when I can find the article that addresses rear end suspension. (Then again I should point out the ball joints and front control arm bushings were shot beforehand so...)

Odd thing is, I don't think the old FCABs were stock BMW. Even if, someass put on 60mm instead of the stock 66mm and tossed out the circlips to the reinforcement plate.

Then I made the mistake of having BMW do the wheel alignment, and all the original slop came back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mach.schnell View Post
Technically, nylon is not plastic, but perhaps I shouldn't quibble.
Turns out, though, I am wrong. Nylon is a form of plastic. (Never marry a materials engineer. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by newe46fan View Post
I would be curious to see how much a set of ZHP CA's weigh
6 lbs. no bushing attached. (Subject to accuracy of my scale - whatever that may be....)

FWIW, I probably would have put on Meyle if the ZHP kit wasn't on closeout sale, and I appreciate the OP's pics. (Hmmm.... should I buy a second kit?)
mach.schnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2011, 03:06 PM   #32
Marinerd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Where roads are smooth...
Posts: 312
My Ride: 09 328i
Kinda off topic here but what kind of front bumper do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
Good info. Pleased to report no issues with my plate or control arms. Though I will say that after my SECOND pair of Meyle HD control arm bushings (second time with NEW arms) my braking vibration has came back slightly. I will install new rotors and pads this weekend to see if that cures it (I have absolutely no idea what rotors and pads are on the car now, but after careful examination, they do not appear to be OEM. I have a feeling theyre Chinese OPParts brand. That would explain a lot. Other than that, my current rotors and pads are within spec and were brand new when I bought the car last year.

I ordered Brembo rotors and Textar pads.
Marinerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2011, 12:31 PM   #33
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,223
My Ride: M54B30
Mtech 1
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2012, 07:52 PM   #34
dmax
Registered User
 
dmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 22,857
My Ride: '99 328i 1.04646 mu
So, longer term review of your Meyles?

Also, anyone know off hand what my options would be for a '99 328i? I'm sure I still have original CAs, but we'll see soon enough.

And, the HD bushings look remarkably similar to the OE ones. Are you sure they're solid rubber and not fluid filled? Anyone happen to cut the meyles apart?

Today there was a thread about a guy who got lemforders, but it only came with one balljoint, so I'm also curious if lemforder went through a recent design change to where its ball joints are serviceable. If so, I wonder if I could just get ball joints pressed into my control arms.

And for my final comment. That Meyle's have a metal socket to hold the metal ball, I'm not so sure that's superior to lemforder's nylon socket. Beneath this socket is another bushing pushing up, so with nylon, it seems like it'd be easier on the ball. I know it's plastic, but as it's 'integrally' slick, I wonder if this is maybe superior to metal on metal? Thoughts?
__________________


Performing at the Comedy Cove--595 Morris Ave. Springfield NJ reservations 973 376-3840

A recent set Skip to 1:30
dmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2012, 10:33 PM   #35
TerraPhantm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mountain Top
Posts: 5,979
My Ride: 2005 M3 Coupe
I doubt it's superior. There's a reason the ZHP ball joints are also metal.
__________________
TerraPhantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 02:23 AM   #36
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,223
My Ride: M54B30
Yep. ZHP/E36 M3 and E46 M3 share all metal design. Non-M E46 came with nylon-casings for comfort and NVH isolation ONLY.

Long-term review? About 20k miles on them and all is good. Corners on rails.

The Meyles weighed in at 1.1lbs more per side than the stock non-M arms. Both with bushings still attached. Not sure where the weight increase is. Probably casting. If you can spring for it, the ZHP arms are the obvious choice. Not to say that you'd be able to tell the difference, but just knowing its OE is good enough to justify the price difference for me. The Meyles are nice units though.

And I'm positive its solid and not fluid-filled, DMAX. I believe thats one of Meyles selling points.
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 01:25 PM   #37
jizzzoe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 633
My Ride: is no longer E46 :(
Send a message via Yahoo to jizzzoe
DAMMIT! My Meyle HD arms and bushing came prepressed, but the damn carrier isn't right and is not pressed on correctly, it is on rotated counterclockwise one too many notches I ordered from www.oembimmerparts.com. I don't know how the factory could mess this up. Jesus! Now am I going to ruin the bushing if I use a puller to pull it off?
__________________

My Steel Gray '03 330Ci... I miss you, baby!
MODS: Purely aesthetic… Shadowlined, Smoked and LED'd out!
jizzzoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 03:02 PM   #38
doggy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: london
Posts: 216
My Ride: 330ise
Diameter of inner ball joint on meyle 52mm so distance from ball joint to bush 265mm

jizzzoe - lube it up with slightly soapy water and stand on it and pull at it by hand. put in correct position and bang the whole thing on rubber floormat or similar
__________________
doggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 05:55 PM   #39
jizzzoe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 633
My Ride: is no longer E46 :(
Send a message via Yahoo to jizzzoe
Thx doggy, worked like a charm
__________________

My Steel Gray '03 330Ci... I miss you, baby!
MODS: Purely aesthetic… Shadowlined, Smoked and LED'd out!
jizzzoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2012, 08:35 PM   #40
MercForHire
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toronto,Ontario
Posts: 4,417
My Ride: sold...
Hi I got a question for Meyle experts.
My car had new Meyle control arms and control arms installed in 2009. I think they should be HD, not sure if Meyle makes two versions.
Did they make control arms with removable balljoints back then?
Thanks
MercForHire is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use