E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning

Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-02-2012, 01:14 PM   #21
Grande D
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dirty South
Posts: 3,356
My Ride: E90 M-Sport
SAE and STD isn't dyno manipulation- they're just different correcting factors. I was told by a dynojet operator that to make the SAE falsified in any way you have to steam water around the weather station, or something to that effect.

Now what the difference is between dynos 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6 I'm not sure. Care to explain?
Grande D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 01:44 PM   #22
NIVO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Worcester, Ma
Posts: 354
My Ride: 2004 330Ci ZHP
Send a message via AIM to NIVO
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhp43867 View Post
SAE and STD isn't dyno manipulation- they're just different correcting factors. I was told by a dynojet operator that to make the SAE falsified in any way you have to steam water around the weather station, or something to that effect.

Now what the difference is between dynos 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6 I'm not sure. Care to explain?
they are just correction factors and if the customer doesn't know what the data is well the dyno operator will use it to his advantage to get return business by giving his customer a higher reading dyno sheet, high numbers = happy customer, He would manipulate the dyno sheet. Sure he could explain what it all means but the customer is happy with a high reading dyno sheet.

And yes, where the weather station is placed in the room will play a role in the numbers because it will effect the weather readings a dyno uses for its correction factor. I personally played with this in the old shop I ran to see what would be the best placement of the tower.

Dynos 1-2 are Uncorrected
Dynos 3-4 are SAE
Dynos 5-6 are STD

Dynos 1-3-5 are smoothing at 0
Dynos 2-4-6 are smoothing at 5

All those dyno sheets are of the same run and 6 different numbers. From 405whp to 423whp.
__________________

www.E46Turbo330Ci.com
WARNING: This modification is known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm due to the extreme G forces once turbo kicks in. ~ Nivo
The rest of my signature is reserved for pointless modification bits like: Halos | window Tint | carbon fiber roundels | short shifter

Last edited by NIVO; 08-02-2012 at 01:51 PM.
NIVO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 02:04 PM   #23
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 753
My Ride: 1999 328i (M54b30)
Edited****

NIVO,

The fact that the before tune numbers line up almost perfectly with what I would estimate the engine to be making at the flywheel and the fact that dyno dynamics specifically states the number is a flywheel number...
I'm still thinking its an estimated flywheel number.

Quote from this website: http://www.performancevauxhallshow.co.uk/2012/02/20/mobile-rolling-road/Dyno Dynamics rolling road

"measured flywheel figures are claimed to be within one or two percent of engine dyno figures, In addition to the power and torque figures, you can get an overall idea of how well your engine is performing, how it could be improved and any potential issues it may have"

The dyno being spoken about is a dyno dynamics wheel dyno (check the website if you don't believe me), clearly they are just estimating engine output based upon wheel numbers.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 08-02-2012 at 02:14 PM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 02:06 PM   #24
Grande D
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dirty South
Posts: 3,356
My Ride: E90 M-Sport
So dyno smoothing changes horsepower? Lolwut... I don't remember that from when I was using winpep or whatever it's called. That may be the case... but the biggest difference in the smoothing seems to be less than 1hp.

By the way a lot of what you're doing is repeating what I said.

Correction factors are not dyno manipulation. Dyno manipulation (to me) is a manipulation of the actual run.

Last edited by Grande D; 08-02-2012 at 02:08 PM.
Grande D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 02:09 PM   #25
NIVO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Worcester, Ma
Posts: 354
My Ride: 2004 330Ci ZHP
Send a message via AIM to NIVO
Quote:
Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
NIVO, I'll take your word that you know about dyno dynamics machines when you say they are not providing flywheel horsepower numbers.

However, the fact that the before tune numbers line up almost perfectly with what I would estimate the engine to be making at the flywheel and the fact that dyno dynamics specifically states the number is a flywheel number...
I'm still thinking its an estimated flywheel number.
As I mentioned, I can drive over there and dyno my car on that very same dyno.
Mustang Dyno I did 205whp/193wtq. All it will prove is what their corrections are set to that is all. If the car pulls near 235HP then their data is hand entered to closely match the wheel horsepower up to what flywheel horsepower would be. On those dynamometers that can be done.
__________________

www.E46Turbo330Ci.com
WARNING: This modification is known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm due to the extreme G forces once turbo kicks in. ~ Nivo
The rest of my signature is reserved for pointless modification bits like: Halos | window Tint | carbon fiber roundels | short shifter
NIVO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 02:11 PM   #26
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 753
My Ride: 1999 328i (M54b30)
re-check the post you quoted, I edited it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIVO View Post
then their data is hand entered to closely match the wheel horsepower up to what flywheel horsepower would be. On those dynamometers that can be done.
This is what I've been saying all along. They are likely literally adding somthing like 15-16% to approximate Flywheel numbers
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 08-02-2012 at 02:13 PM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 02:15 PM   #27
xixixi
Banned User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: St Louis, MO
Posts: 3,008
My Ride: 01 330x-xi
Everyone with half a brain knows wtf is going on here. I think this is hillarious and a pure troll thread. I enjoyed this thread, until it was taken seriously.
xixixi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 02:17 PM   #28
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 753
My Ride: 1999 328i (M54b30)
Quote:
Originally Posted by xixixi View Post
Everyone with half a brain knows wtf is going on here. I think this is hillarious and a pure troll thread. I enjoyed this thread, until it was taken seriously.
Haha sorry to ruin your fun, it was hurting me inside to watch.
__________________
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 07:05 PM   #29
Grande D
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dirty South
Posts: 3,356
My Ride: E90 M-Sport
I might beat you to it with the Epic tune (dyno that is). What'd you pay for it? Can you PM me?
Grande D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 07:29 PM   #30
Steven747
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,386
My Ride: 05 330ci
It's only 300 bucks for a custom dyno tune from Bren fyi
__________________
Steven747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 08:13 PM   #31
reggid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: .
Posts: 33
My Ride: .
guys, the dyno is reading flywheel hp as shown on the screen which is whp with a correction factor to account for drivetrain losses where dynodyanmics essentially use a fixed percentage of ~20%. This is actually a fact despite what others have said

the dyno only measures whp but you can get either the whp or the flywheel hp (approx whp/0.8) printed/ shown on screen.

it is also worth noting that the operator can't manipulate the data in dyno dynamics "shootout" mode other than IAT (should be shown on graph so cheating is obvious) and strapdown, tyre pressure, handbrake, A/C etc which you cant tell from the graph and can be done on any other dyno type. In non shootout mode the operator can scale the results by whatever he likes

it is very commonly used in europe and here is a random plot showing the "flywheel hp" and the "whp" where the run is the same but a fixed % correction is used.........




So the numbers on the original post are estimated flywheel hp not the more traditionally used WHP period..........
reggid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:25 AM   #32
Grande D
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dirty South
Posts: 3,356
My Ride: E90 M-Sport
20% drivetrain loss?! Holy shiit.
Grande D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 10:36 AM   #33
rkneeshaw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 677
My Ride: 330i ZHP
Bottom line is those numbers in the vids on youtube are bull. And for an operator to try to post estimated flywheel numbers instead of at-the-wheel numbers is misleading and a bit shady.

I don't care what the arguments are, those cars are NOT making 260hp at the wheels. Not even close. Maybe 215 tops.

It would be nice if this tuner posted legitimate dyno charts that show at-the-wheels numbers, before and after his tune. Then we may talk.
__________________
2003 BMW 330i ZHP
BMW Performance Intake and SSK - Headers - Magnaflow - ESS Tuning
Turner Motorsports Pullies and Reinforcements - H&R Spacers - StopTech - And more...

rkneeshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 03:33 PM   #34
SH4DY
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Va
Posts: 54
My Ride: '04 330Ci
Yes, those numbers seem high but I never saw how he was tuning the cars (what software?). shows OBDII for some 04 and BDM for 04-05... maybe one of the lucky few to get a pre-release shark edit or however else AA, Bimmerworld, etc are tuning the stock DME.
SH4DY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:56 PM   #35
reggid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: .
Posts: 33
My Ride: .
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkneeshaw View Post
Bottom line is those numbers in the vids on youtube are bull. And for an operator to try to post estimated flywheel numbers instead of at-the-wheel numbers is misleading and a bit shady.

I don't care what the arguments are, those cars are NOT making 260hp at the wheels. Not even close. Maybe 215 tops.

It would be nice if this tuner posted legitimate dyno charts that show at-the-wheels numbers, before and after his tune. Then we may talk.
in a market where WHP is the norm it is misleading whether it is deliberate or not is another matter. In Europe it is the norm though......

i find it odd that the torque gains are almost the same across the whole rev range which is suspicious in itself

the 20% used on dyno dynaimcs is not calculated using coast down losses either like some other dynos do e.g. Dastek , it is just a fixed correction that the software people at dyno dynamics came up with so that the new vehicles run on the dyno make about what the factory says. IMO it is a BS number but you can justmultiply by 0.8 to get the whp.
reggid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2012, 12:05 AM   #36
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 753
My Ride: 1999 328i (M54b30)
Technically multiplying by .8 won't bring you back to percent less. 20 percent of 100 is 20. 20 percent of 120 is 24... See the problem.

Multiplying by .833 should get you closer.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 08-05-2012 at 12:10 AM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2012, 09:43 PM   #37
reggid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: .
Posts: 33
My Ride: .
Quote:
Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
Technically multiplying by .8 won't bring you back to percent less. 20 percent of 100 is 20. 20 percent of 120 is 24... See the problem.

Multiplying by .833 should get you closer.
if

BHP = est engine hp
WHP= hp at wheels

in the graph i showed WHP/BHP=0.80

therefore

WHP = BHP x 0.8

i call this 20% losses

BHP = WHP/0.8

so multiply WHP x 1.25 to get BHP in dyno dyamnics logic
reggid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2012, 11:47 PM   #38
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 753
My Ride: 1999 328i (M54b30)
Ah, didn't catch that in the graph that you had a whp and bhp version. So ya if .8 is the correct number to multiply by to get whp, it means they were pretty much using a 1.25 correction factor. Which as you say is 20 percent losses from bhp or 25 percent gain from whp.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 08-05-2012 at 11:51 PM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 03:50 AM   #39
reggid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: .
Posts: 33
My Ride: .
Quote:
Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
Ah, didn't catch that in the graph that you had a whp and bhp version. So ya if .8 is the correct number to multiply by to get whp, it means they were pretty much using a 1.25 correction factor. Which as you say is 20 percent losses from bhp or 25 percent gain from whp.
we are all to blame for this nonsense, people want dynos that spit out big numbers and thats what the dyno people deliver..........

i'll also add that WHP vs BHP can be determined from the graph, if it says "flywheel power" or has an S as in "S_Hp" and similar for torque then it is corrected by this made up number.....
reggid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2012, 06:31 PM   #40
DarkJoker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: mass
Posts: 915
My Ride: 01 330ci
the second video is my car and its flywheel rated
hopefully soon ill get on a dynojet
to give "actual" rear wheel numbers
__________________

Last edited by DarkJoker; 08-16-2012 at 06:32 PM.
DarkJoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is OFF





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use