Toyota GT 86 / Subaru BRZ

Originally Posted by SPDSKTR

Sure, it's the ESSENCE of a sports car. With that said, it's overpriced. I would expect to pay LESS for the ESSENCE. For $26,000+, I would expect something beyond the bare minimum.

FRS starts at $24,900. that's a fair price, given a miata starts at $23,400 and the civic si starts at $22,400. this is not the 80s and 90s; you don't find decent sporty cars for under $20K anymore. imo, the FRS is well worth the $2500 premium over a civic si.

Originally Posted by SPDSKTR

Let's take the Mustang V6 and compare it against the BRZ. Can you imagine what you could drop on that Mustang with $3,300? Upgrade the suspension and you'll have a car that's going to piss off the BRZ through the turns (may not actually hang with it) and absolutely roast it in the straights.

yeah, but will the mustang be as exciting and rewarding to drive? even the frs/brz creaters have emphasized that their cars goal is not about outright speed and ultimate handling grip. the car is about the thrill and connectedness behind the wheel. the e46 isn't exactly the fastest, best handling, or most luxurious coupe/sedan for the money, yet so many of us chose to buy them. i'm guessing 1 of the main reasons we chose to buy them is because of the way the car feels behind the wheel. sometimes driving experience is more important than actual performance specs.

Originally Posted by EDawg

yeah, but will the mustang be as exciting and rewarding to drive? even the frs/brz creaters have emphasized that their cars goal is not about outright speed and ultimate handling grip. the car is about the thrill and connectedness behind the wheel.

In comparison to previous generation Mustangs I've driven, the latest models give a much more connected feel to the car, but it's still nothing like my E46. I dare say all the BRZ needs (in my opinion) is more power. It seems like performance shops are already making this happen.

http://jalopnik.com/5932907/first-tu...278-horsepower

Originally Posted by Jalopnik.com

http://youtu.be/QMiWHr2JGDQ

Toledo, Ohio's Accelerated Performance created a stir last month with the first turbocharged BRZ. When they popped up on the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club forum last month, John Visconti had squeezed 54.5 extra horsepower out of the Subaru BRZ's stock 2-liter engine.

He's since upped the ante, raising the boost from 4 to 10 psi and jacking the power output to 278 whp. That's 117 hp over the stock 161 whp out put. Not too shabby.
On the forum, Visconti said the kit - Accelerated performance's BRZ-300 turbo setup - costs about $5,000. He also told forum commenters that A.P. is working on making bigger turbos work as well.

Using new EcuTek RaceRom software for the BRZ/FRS and an Omni 4 Bar MAP Sensor in conjunction with A.P.'s BRZ-300 turbo kit, Visconti clocked the custom BRZ's power output at 278 whp at 7,200 rpm. The car cranked 215 lb-ft of torque at 5,500 rpm; a 79 lb-ft boost over stock numbers.

Visconti told us peak horsepower was 286 on one run, but they "weren't looking for peak numbers - just reliability"

It sounds like he's still fiddling with it, but Accelerated Performance seems to be on the right track toward turning the BRZ into the nasty turbo street fighter Subaru's repeatedly said they're not going to build.

Here's a video of the same car running less boost (4 PSI), putting down roughly 210 WHP. With 210 WHP, it still takes 6 seconds to go from 15 MPH to 60 MPH. I'm sorry... what? My 330Ci (which has less WHP and weighs significantly more) does 0 to 60 in just under 6 seconds. I'm trying to find a video of the 278 WHP tune.

EDIT: Here's one by the same performance shop running an 11.3 quarter-mile.

Originally Posted by EDawg

yeah, but will the mustang be as exciting and rewarding to drive? even the frs/brz creaters have emphasized that their cars goal is not about outright speed and ultimate handling grip. the car is about the thrill and connectedness behind the wheel. the e46 isn't exactly the fastest, best handling, or most luxurious coupe/sedan for the money, yet so many of us chose to buy them. i'm guessing 1 of the main reasons we chose to buy them is because of the way the car feels behind the wheel. sometimes driving experience is more important than actual performance specs.

have you driven a new mustang yet?

Originally Posted by SPDSKTR

In comparison to previous generation Mustangs I've driven, the latest models give a much more connected feel to the car, but it's still nothing like my E46. I dare say all the BRZ needs (in my opinion) is more power. It seems like performance shops are already making this happen.

no matter how much more "connected" the new mustangs feel compared to previous generation ones, you still won't get the responses you get from an under 2800lbs car with a super low center of gravity that you get from the frs/brz.

yes, the frs/brz can use more power, and it's great that aftermarkets are doing something about it. but the bottom line is that toyota/subaru want this car to be "affordable", and adding FI will only up the price. who knows, rumor has it that toyota is working on a SC while subaru is working on a turbo for their respective cars, so maybe in a year or 2 they'll be available for people who are willing to pay more for a faster frs/brz.

it looks fantastic, and i thinks it's a great sports car despite the lack of power. saw one the other day and def a head turner even if the interior meh...

Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer

have you driven a new mustang yet?

yeah. not a big fan of them. they have nice power, but they feel like pigs.

Originally Posted by EDawg

yeah. not a big fan of them. they have nice power, but they feel like pigs.

I'd agree with you up until 2011.

I couldn't imagine giving up my car for another E46

Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer

I'd agree with you up until 2011.

well, i guess it's all relative. to me, my e46 feels like a pig as well...compared with my s2k.

Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer

I'd agree with you up until 2011.

This.

The 2011 Mustang V6 is nimble for what it is. Compared to the 2003 Mustang GT I used to own, it felt more like a sports car than "raw American muscle." The new 5.0's are just scary (but so fun) with that raw power. The extra weight up front doesn't necessarily help them out, but they are still better than previous Mustangs.

Originally Posted by SPDSKTR

This.

The 2011 Mustang V6 is nimble for what it is. Compared to the 2003 Mustang GT I used to own, it felt more like a sports car than "raw American muscle." The new 5.0's are just scary (but so fun) with that raw power. The extra weight up front doesn't necessarily help them out, but they are still better than previous Mustangs.

i'm not downing the mustang per se. it's just not my cup of tea. i prefer something that is light and nimble that i can enjoy on public roads without risking getting arrested. obviously, your priorities are different, which is fine.

I can enjoy my car on public roads, and I haven't gotten arrested for it yet

Originally Posted by EDawg

i'm not downing the mustang per se. it's just not my cup of tea. i prefer something that is light and nimble that i can enjoy on public roads without risking getting arrested. obviously, your priorities are different, which is fine.

I can drive any car and not risk getting arrested. I don't see your point.

The BRZ/FR-S is a great car... I'm not denying that. It just needs more punch to complete the total package.

Originally Posted by SPDSKTR

I can drive any car and not risk getting arrested. I don't see your point.

The BRZ/FR-S is a great car... I'm not denying that. It just needs more punch to complete the total package.

some cars are fun only when you put down the power and go fast. other cars like the frs/brz can provide thrills without going insanely fast. that is the point i'm trying to get at. i love power and speed as much as the next person, but our public roads don't exactly allow us to make use of that power and speed without risking some serious legal consequences. this is also kind of the point the frs/brz creators are trying to get at: they believe modern sports cars have become too expensive, too powerful, too grippy, and too electronically nannied and their goal with the frs/brz is get back to the basics and provide a car that is simple, easy to manage, and affordable that can be enjoyed at non insane speed. the frs/brz was never intended for power/speed junkies.

Wtf is it with Americans and their 0-60 and 1/4 Mile obsession?

Originally Posted by KOpower

When I sat inside - the interior and cluster felt cheap - bloody hell the car didn't have electric seats

Thoughts/comments ??

I assume you mean power seats? Do you know what those weigh? The whole point of this car is that it's light and nimble. Why don't we add a panorama sunroof and a trailer hitch while we're at it?

Originally Posted by KOpower

Then I heard its got like a boxy engine which needs to be really thrashed before u get any power out of it

Thoughts/comments ??

I like, don't like, know like, what you like, mean by boxy? Can you like, maybe like, explain further?

Originally Posted by EDawg

some cars are fun only when you put down the power and go fast. other cars like the frs/brz can provide thrills without going insanely fast. that is the point i'm trying to get at. i love power and speed as much as the next person, but our public roads don't exactly allow us to make use of that power and speed without risking some serious legal consequences. this is also kind of the point the frs/brz creators are trying to get at: they believe modern sports cars have become too expensive, too powerful, too grippy, and too electronically nannied and their goal with the frs/brz is get back to the basics and provide a car that is simple, easy to manage, and affordable that can be enjoyed at non insane speed. the frs/brz was never intended for power/speed junkies.

What I think bugs the piss out of me is the fact that everyone is seeming to rave about how the BRZ/FR-S is the Messiah of modern sports cars, when in all reality, it's just another entry-level sports car with a $3,000 higher price tag.

Originally Posted by CoconutPete

I assume you mean power seats? Do you know what those weigh? The whole point of this car is that it's light and nimble. Why don't we add a panorama sunroof and a trailer hitch while we're at it?

I like, don't like, know like, what you like, mean by boxy? Can you like, maybe like, explain further?

By shedding power seats in my car and getting a pair of Sparco Fighters, I could easily save some 140 lbs. Ditch the sunroof? Probably another 25 lbs. It all adds up... people don't realize. There's a reason the old CRX got awesome fuel efficiency.

I think he meant horizontal boxer motor.

Originally Posted by dreamdrivedrift

you guys just don't get it

it is the essence of the sports car

A turbo would ruin it

Yes....nobody want a fast Sports Car


Did the Turbo Ruin thethe MR2?

I kick myself in the a$$ every day for not getting the Turbo back in 1990.

Night and day

Originally Posted by SPDSKTR

What I think bugs the piss out of me is the fact that everyone is seeming to rave about how the BRZ/FR-S is the Messiah of modern sports cars, when in all reality, it's just another entry-level sports car with a $3,000 higher price tag.

the frs/brz is mainly praised for its fun factor and its affordability. it's also a big deal cuz it's simple and light weight, which is what sports cars originally were. sure the frs/brz may not be perfect, but name another car, aside from the miata, that is simple, light weight, rwd, fun to drive, and affordable all wrapped in 1? even if you consider the mustang v6 to be affordable and fun to drive, at 3501lbs, that's hardly considered light weight.

Originally Posted by EDawg

the frs/brz is mainly praised for its fun factor and its affordability. it's also a big deal cuz it's simple and light weight, which is what sports cars originally were. sure the frs/brz may not be perfect, but name another car, aside from the miata, that is simple, light weight, rwd, fun to drive, and affordable all wrapped in 1? even if you consider the mustang v6 to be affordable and fun to drive, at 3501lbs, that's hardly considered light weight.

All true...But it would not be so much fun for my 2 kids tring to sit in the back......they could manage in the stang...and put things in the trunk