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Old 10-10-2012, 03:51 PM   #1
A4RingedONE8T
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S54 Steedspeed/HPF Tubular Manifold Replacement

Hey guys, I've gotten a few direct inquiries about building a tubular manifold as a direct swap for the Steedspeed/HPF manifold, keeping the rest of the kit intact. Just wanted to see if there would be any interest here and if so which of a few options you would like to see. Pricing not even discussed yet, so please do not ask for pricing, this is just an interest thread, and opinions on what design you'd like to see.

Here's the options I have in mind:

Option #1 - Single scroll T4, basically replacing the Steedspeed manifold with a tubular manifold, no other changes to hardware

Option #2 - Single scroll T4, removing the problematic 4 bolt wastegate flange and relocation pipe. Re-using current Tial 44 wastegate, now to be directly v-banded to manifold. This would include a OPEN DUMP TUBE for the wastegate as well

Option #3 - Twin scroll, divided T4. This would again be P&P with HPF hardware, replace/include (2) Tial 38mm wastegates and (2) OPEN DUMP TUBES

Please let me know what you guys think, if you'd care to change out your current manifold for one of these options, or if you have another idea in mind. We will be using our HPF stage 4 M3 for test fitment, fabrication, and testing for each manifold design.

For reference to quality of our manifolds, here is the divided T4 manifold I built for Trevor's Z4M for those that have not followed his build thread









Discuss!

-Shawn-
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:22 PM   #2
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Man, HPF should just have you do the exhaust manifolds from now on. SICK!
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:41 PM   #3
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You said REPLACING the Steed SPeed. That's fine. Will it flow BETTER than the Steed SPeed? Do you know this for a fact? Several tuners say that both the Steed Speed and the HPF manis start becoming a BOTTLENECK at 700 to 800 HP....maybe even earlier.
Supras are making 1000 Hp with 71mm turbos while the S54's top out at 800 to 850 HP. To get a 1000HP takes a much larger turbo that has to fight all the way to get that figure, even if the intake pipe/air filter bottle neck is solved.

We have been waiting for a savior to relieve that bottleneck and make for a MUCH happier running motor....likely with much lower EGT's, more efficient, and just happier all the way around. Motors are just like people. They hate to be choked.

Shawn, you sound like you are on the cutting edge. It would great to get some Dyno numbers on your manis to help make a decision on which is best. Testing manis is a huge commitment of time, equipment run time and manpower.
It would be so great if someone stepped up and made that commitment. I think SOME numbers are soon to come out from Lutz.

Politics and alliances may muddle things for us owners. Doc Race is with HPF. SAAD is with PRO EFI. I dont know who Lutz/Speed Freaks(Shawn, the OP) has forged any alliance with. I am hoping that everyone is willing to share. I should be able to go to HPF and say i want a Doc Race or maybe a Speed Freaks tubular. Is that realistic? Maybe not because of warranty issues. I dont know. It would be nice to have choices finally, wouldnt it?

Many guys are willing to spend a few more $$ for a world class exhaust manifold that will put the E46 M3 more on par with the 2JZ Supra using the SAME size turbos.

Do I speak for any of you Turbo M3 owners out there? Do you want another 100 to 200HP out of the turbo you are using? (You may need to modify the air filter/intake pipe too.) That is a lot of HP on the table. i think its all there just waiting to be unleashed by a better exhaust mani and modified intake pipe.
But, which mani? Whose mani? Shawn, you have a lot options, my man. Impressive!

All of a sudden there are three or four tubular coming out for the S54. All at almost the same time. When it rains it pours. There has been a need for a really good tubular for years now. So ironic to have them all come out at about the same time. Late is better than never.
Who will be the winner in combination of price, reliability(not cracking) and efficiency(numbers!)?

Tubular offerings so far: Doc Race, Lutz/Speed Freaks(Shawn), FSR, SAAD(on demand only AFAIK)....who else?
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:04 PM   #4
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i want one!!! could you pm me a price for my car? i want a bottom mount t4 twin scroll for a garrett gt35r car is a e46 323i 99
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:43 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
You said REPLACING the Steed SPeed. That's fine. Will it flow BETTER than the Steed SPeed? Do you know this for a fact? Several tuners say that both the Steed Speed and the HPF manis start becoming a BOTTLENECK at 700 to 800 HP....maybe even earlier.
Supras are making 1000 Hp with 71mm turbos while the S54's top out at 800 to 850 HP. To get a 1000HP takes a much larger turbo that has to fight all the way to get that figure, even if the intake pipe/air filter bottle neck is solved.

We have been waiting for a savior to relieve that bottleneck and make for a MUCH happier running motor....likely with much lower EGT's, more efficient, and just happier all the way around. Motors are just like people. They hate to be choked.

Shawn, you sound like you are on the cutting edge. It would great to get some Dyno numbers on your manis to help make a decision on which is best. Testing manis is a huge commitment of time, equipment run time and manpower.
It would be so great if someone stepped up and made that commitment. I think SOME numbers are soon to come out from Lutz.

Politics and alliances may muddle things for us owners. Doc Race is with HPF. SAAD is with PRO EFI. I dont know who Lutz/Speed Freaks(Shawn, the OP) has forged any alliance with. I am hoping that everyone is willing to share. I should be able to go to HPF and say i want a Doc Race or maybe a Speed Freaks tubular. Is that realistic? Maybe not because of warranty issues. I dont know. It would be nice to have choices finally, wouldnt it?

Many guys are willing to spend a few more $$ for a world class exhaust manifold that will put the E46 M3 more on par with the 2JZ Supra using the SAME size turbos.

Do I speak for any of you Turbo M3 owners out there? Do you want another 100 to 200HP out of the turbo you are using? (You may need to modify the air filter/intake pipe too.) That is a lot of HP on the table. i think its all there just waiting to be unleashed by a better exhaust mani and modified intake pipe.
But, which mani? Whose mani? Shawn, you have a lot options, my man. Impressive!

All of a sudden there are three or four tubular coming out for the S54. All at almost the same time. When it rains it pours. There has been a need for a really good tubular for years now. So ironic to have them all come out at about the same time. Late is better than never.
Who will be the winner in combination of price, reliability(not cracking) and efficiency(numbers!)?

Tubular offerings so far: Doc Race, Lutz/Speed Freaks(Shawn), FSR, SAAD(on demand only AFAIK)....who else?
BDave.. I say this because I care. Sometimes you need to just take a real long breath and pretend that each post you make is like you at a speed dating convention.

What you'd done just now is asked our potential date (Shawn) if he wants 3 kids or 4 and which sports they should play.

Lets not scare people away now.

---

That said.. I think many are interested but most will wind up taking a 'wait and see' approach. I'm willing to bet 5-6 would fly off the shelf first day (twin scroll) but until its built , and fitted.. its all going to be tire kickers.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
You said REPLACING the Steed SPeed. That's fine. Will it flow BETTER than the Steed SPeed? Do you know this for a fact? Several tuners say that both the Steed Speed and the HPF manis start becoming a BOTTLENECK at 700 to 800 HP....maybe even earlier.
Supras are making 1000 Hp with 71mm turbos while the S54's top out at 800 to 850 HP. To get a 1000HP takes a much larger turbo that has to fight all the way to get that figure, even if the intake pipe/air filter bottle neck is solved.

We have been waiting for a savior to relieve that bottleneck and make for a MUCH happier running motor....likely with much lower EGT's, more efficient, and just happier all the way around. Motors are just like people. They hate to be choked.

Shawn, you sound like you are on the cutting edge. It would great to get some Dyno numbers on your manis to help make a decision on which is best. Testing manis is a huge commitment of time, equipment run time and manpower.
It would be so great if someone stepped up and made that commitment. I think SOME numbers are soon to come out from Lutz.

Politics and alliances may muddle things for us owners. Doc Race is with HPF. SAAD is with PRO EFI. I dont know who Lutz/Speed Freaks(Shawn, the OP) has forged any alliance with. I am hoping that everyone is willing to share. I should be able to go to HPF and say i want a Doc Race or maybe a Speed Freaks tubular. Is that realistic? Maybe not because of warranty issues. I dont know. It would be nice to have choices finally, wouldnt it?

Many guys are willing to spend a few more $$ for a world class exhaust manifold that will put the E46 M3 more on par with the 2JZ Supra using the SAME size turbos.

Do I speak for any of you Turbo M3 owners out there? Do you want another 100 to 200HP out of the turbo you are using? (You may need to modify the air filter/intake pipe too.) That is a lot of HP on the table. i think its all there just waiting to be unleashed by a better exhaust mani and modified intake pipe.
But, which mani? Whose mani? Shawn, you have a lot options, my man. Impressive!

All of a sudden there are three or four tubular coming out for the S54. All at almost the same time. When it rains it pours. There has been a need for a really good tubular for years now. So ironic to have them all come out at about the same time. Late is better than never.
Who will be the winner in combination of price, reliability(not cracking) and efficiency(numbers!)?

Tubular offerings so far: Doc Race, Lutz/Speed Freaks(Shawn), FSR, SAAD(on demand only AFAIK)....who else?
Whoa!

Thank you for the response first off. Let me clarify what we'd like to offer. I plan to build a few to start, after those each manifold will be made to order just as you want it. Our plan isn't to shelf a stack hoping for sales, unfortunately in our wonderful economy its hard to do so. What I can offer is exact fitment with the HPF components, built to your specs within a physical fitment range. Since I started fabricating I've never built the same thing twice. I like that, it makes each piece unique, something to appreciate even more on your car because it's your one of a kind. I love advancing my skills and I think pushing the manifold design a little more, there's power to get back lost in the manifold. Changing tq and power bands as well. I appreciate you mentioning us and comparing us with HPF, Saad, etc. they are for sure a few of the big boys. Let me say we aren't looking for any type of competition with any of them. We have something a little different to offer and if we can help out even just a few people to the next step, why not? The tuning market should be a friendly one, if we can't help each other out with each of our strengths then we aren't helping anyone, including ourselves.

I appreciate all of your input, definite food for thought.

-Shawn-
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:23 PM   #7
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Option #3 - Twin scroll, divided T4. This would again be P&P with HPF hardware, replace/include (2) Tial 38mm wastegates and (2) OPEN DUMP TUBES
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A4RingedONE8T View Post
Whoa!

Thank you for the response first off. Let me clarify what we'd like to offer. I plan to build a few to start, after those each manifold will be made to order just as you want it. Our plan isn't to shelf a stack hoping for sales, unfortunately in our wonderful economy its hard to do so. What I can offer is exact fitment with the HPF components, built to your specs within a physical fitment range. Since I started fabricating I've never built the same thing twice. I like that, it makes each piece unique, something to appreciate even more on your car because it's your one of a kind. I love advancing my skills and I think pushing the manifold design a little more, there's power to get back lost in the manifold. Changing tq and power bands as well. I appreciate you mentioning us and comparing us with HPF, Saad, etc. they are for sure a few of the big boys. Let me say we aren't looking for any type of competition with any of them. We have something a little different to offer and if we can help out even just a few people to the next step, why not? The tuning market should be a friendly one, if we can't help each other out with each of our strengths then we aren't helping anyone, including ourselves.

I appreciate all of your input, definite food for thought.

-Shawn-
Thanks, Shawn. You are so talented. I was SO pleased to just now finding this in my re reading of one of your threads:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lutzperformance View Post
We would be interested in working with HPF guys on building a manifold for you guys, but how many of you would be interested in one?

Thanks guys!
This is what it is all about. Sharing. Good on you, Shawn and Lutz! I really hope you and HPF can come to some agreement. Think of it. The HPF customer saying,"Oh I will have THIS brand of tubular manifold." All this when NO tubular have been available for so long. I just love you guy's attitude and openness. So refreshing!

As far as how many guys would be interested...That depends on return on investment. Numbers. How much more HP is the mani bringing to the table for how much more money in cost? if you can show say 75 to 100 Hp gai with a 6766 and possibly much more gain with the 71mm, then get in line! I think this is very possible with a really GOOD tubular. There is one catch. You will HAVE to modify the intake tube and air filter to run a big AFE to realize the maximum gain caused by the exhaust side tubular.

Anyone offering a tubular mani should also be developing the best possible intake tube running an AFE as high as possible and NOT loosing the AC compressor. It can be done. You can have the best tubular mani and not see much improvement if you dont free up the intake side restrictions.

A modified tube and filter fitted with an AC compressor DELETE is much easier and less costly. So, that could be an option as well for our Northern friends.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan avoN7 View Post
Option #3 - Twin scroll, divided T4. This would again be P&P with HPF hardware, replace/include (2) Tial 38mm wastegates and (2) OPEN DUMP TUBES
+2 for me.... only if i gain HP & TQ
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:50 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
Thanks, Shawn. You are so talented. I was SO pleased to just now finding this in my re reading of one of your threads:



This is what it is all about. Sharing. Good on you, Shawn and Lutz! I really hope you and HPF can come to some agreement. Think of it. The HPF customer saying,"Oh I will have THIS brand of tubular manifold." All this when NO tubular have been available for so long. I just love you guy's attitude and openness. So refreshing!

As far as how many guys would be interested...That depends on return on investment. Numbers. How much more HP is the mani bringing to the table for how much more money in cost? if you can show say 75 to 100 Hp gai with a 6766 and possibly much more gain with the 71mm, then get in line! I think this is very possible with a really GOOD tubular. There is one catch. You will HAVE to modify the intake tube and air filter to run a big AFE to realize the maximum gain caused by the exhaust side tubular.

Anyone offering a tubular mani should also be developing the best possible intake tube running an AFE as high as possible and NOT loosing the AC compressor. It can be done. You can have the best tubular mani and not see much improvement if you dont free up the intake side restrictions.

A modified tube and filter fitted with an AC compressor DELETE is much easier and less costly. So, that could be an option as well for our Northern friends.

Slow down Bdave. This thread was created to ask about the interest in having manifolds built, not about intakes ect ect ect ect.

I would love to see these manifolds built. I can't say for sure that I would want one but it's always nice to have a choice. Judging by the quality of the craftsmanship these manifolds would sell fast.
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:12 AM   #11
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Hey guys, we are very interested in moving forward with this, can I get an idea of which option more of you would be interested so we can focus on one manifold to begin with and then add options as people want them.

Going to make a quick list and obviously you guys can still ask questions as you have them.

This is just for an idea not a commitment.

name and which manifold
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

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Old 10-11-2012, 09:20 AM   #12
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Id buy one, after i see it makes more power.

So one add me to list im on my phone.

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Old 10-11-2012, 09:33 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by InDiGlOM3 View Post
Id buy one, after i see it makes more power.

So one add me to list im on my phone.

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Obviously I wouldn't expect a commitment until we give you guys some results, however just want to get an idea on which manifold option people would be interested in the most so we can have an idea on where our area of focus should be, and then we will test the remaining options so that people can have a choice, but we want to focus on what people are most interested in.

IndigloM3, which manifold option were you interested in
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:26 AM   #14
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I'd go option #3 if better spool and lower exhaust temps...thus having greater ability for more power&torque.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:33 PM   #15
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make me a 335i one please
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:37 PM   #16
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make me a 335i one please
One project at a time!
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:38 PM   #17
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Interest so far...

name and which manifold
1. Commanderwiggin/ Option 3
2.
3.
4.
5.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A4RingedONE8T View Post
Hey guys, I've gotten a few direct inquiries about building a tubular manifold as a direct swap for the Steedspeed/HPF manifold, keeping the rest of the kit intact. Just wanted to see if there would be any interest here and if so which of a few options you would like to see. Pricing not even discussed yet, so please do not ask for pricing, this is just an interest thread, and opinions on what design you'd like to see.

Here's the options I have in mind:

Option #1 - Single scroll T4, basically replacing the Steedspeed manifold with a tubular manifold, no other changes to hardware

Option #2 - Single scroll T4, removing the problematic 4 bolt wastegate flange and relocation pipe. Re-using current Tial 44 wastegate, now to be directly v-banded to manifold. This would include a OPEN DUMP TUBE for the wastegate as well

Option #3 - Twin scroll, divided T4. This would again be P&P with HPF hardware, replace/include (2) Tial 38mm wastegates and (2) OPEN DUMP TUBES
Discuss!

-Shawn-
Option #3 seems more optimized.

As it relates to the viability of this option:
  • Would the turbine housing be the only part required to be swapped to convert a single-scroll turbo to a twin? Any comments on the availability of this part?
  • Are the flanges even compatible so that someone could feed a single scroll turbo with a twin-scroll manifold (for a more incremental upgrade)?

How close to equal length are the tubes?

Are equal length tubes even that important with FI?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:43 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
Supras are making 1000 Hp with 71mm turbos while the S54's top out at 800 to 850 HP. To get a 1000HP takes a much larger turbo that has to fight all the way to get that figure, even if the intake pipe/air filter bottle neck is solved.
If memory serves, the S54 head flows better (greater VE). So with similar equipment (intake and exhaust manifold, turbo etc) I would expect the S54 to outperform the 2JZ.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:10 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
I'd go option #3 if better spool and lower exhaust temps...thus having greater ability for more power&torque.
Can/should we fit a divided ex mani on our undivided 6766s?
Is it possible to make the other two tubes and recirculate it?(some can't have their cars too loud)
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