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Old 10-11-2012, 01:20 PM   #61
M3Inline6
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I'll just say this......I have a friend who was employed in law enforcement and regularly sold drugs to Armstrong (..mostly through a 3rd party contact, but on a couple of occasions in person). He lost his job over dealing drugs (..steroids) to other law enforcement personnel from line officers up to management. It sucks, but at least he avoided long-term jail sentencing without ratting out the officers that he sold to. He truly took one for the team, and while I'll never condone the sell - nor the use - of illegal substances, I have to respect the fact that he chose to plead the 5th rather than toss others under the bus because he got caught.

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Old 10-11-2012, 01:46 PM   #62
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:47 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Inline6 View Post
I'll just say this......I have a friend who was employed in law enforcement and regularly sold drugs to Armstrong (..mostly through a 3rd party contact, but on a couple of occasions in person). He lost his job over dealing drugs (..steroids) to other law enforcement personnel from line officers up to management. It sucks, but at least he avoided long-term jail sentencing without ratting out the officers that he sold to. He truly took one for the team, and while I'll never condone the sell - nor the use - of illegal substances, I have to respect the fact that he chose to plead the 5th rather than toss others under the bus because he got caught.
So you fully believe and do not question the claims of a crooked cop drug dealer who bought into some misplace sense of duty to protect other crooked cops drug users?
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:08 PM   #64
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So you fully believe and do not question the claims of a crooked cop drug dealer who bought into some misplace sense of duty to protect other crooked cops drug users?
I wouldn't go that far at all. My previous statement was very surface, and devoid of particulars purposefully (..this is a public forum). Shoot me a text if you want details.

For those who will only be privy to my surface statement, let me state this: I do not personally consider the use of steriods to be of any detriment to society. I will never use them, but there are far worse transgressions.

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Old 10-11-2012, 02:13 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by M3Inline6 View Post
I'll just say this......I have a friend who was employed in law enforcement and regularly sold drugs to Armstrong (..mostly through a 3rd party contact, but on a couple of occasions in person). He lost his job over dealing drugs (..steroids) to other law enforcement personnel from line officers up to management. It sucks, but at least he avoided long-term jail sentencing without ratting out the officers that he sold to. He truly took one for the team, and while I'll never condone the sell - nor the use - of illegal substances, I have to respect the fact that he chose to plead the 5th rather than toss others under the bus because he got caught.
Please, that's just cops protecting cops. Nothing new.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:19 PM   #66
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Please, that's just cops protecting cops. Nothing new.
We view this situation differently. This isn't necessarily a thin blue line situation. Nonetheless it sucks for Armstrong, but we are all held accountable for the decisions that we make (..sooner or later). The steroid use in a competitive environment will forever overshadow his accomplishments.

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Old 10-11-2012, 02:41 PM   #67
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for anyone still on the fence, you should read his teammates affidavit
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net...+Affidavit.pdf

wow. those tests did truly suck.


so, was it cheating, if it was done under the amount that was detectible? (ha, suckers question, I know.)
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:45 PM   #68
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The affidavit was an interesting read, to say the least.

Taken responsibly, I see no problem with diligent and well-researched steroid use. Like dwass mentioned, people fear what they don't understand and draw conclusions based on opinions that are usually uninformed and complety irrational.

Also, after reading the affidavit I can't help but feel for the guy. I mean here he is watching the overwhelming majority of his competition partaking in PEDs and soaring past him, not to mention that nearly every colleague/teamate on the various teams he rode for either used or encouraged the use of PEDs. Its a bit of a no-win situation for them. They're held to these unbelievable standards (which, arguably, could have been a result of unknown PED use at the time). If they decide to stay out of it and go natural then they suck to their fans (and country) once they start losing to everybody. If they decide to take the drugs then they are parriahs and charlatans once they are caught.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:12 AM   #69
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The affidavit was an interesting read, to say the least.

Taken responsibly, I see no problem with diligent and well-researched steroid use. Like dwass mentioned, people fear what they don't understand and draw conclusions based on opinions that are usually uninformed and complety irrational.

Also, after reading the affidavit I can't help but feel for the guy. I mean here he is watching the overwhelming majority of his competition partaking in PEDs and soaring past him, not to mention that nearly every colleague/teamate on the various teams he rode for either used or encouraged the use of PEDs. Its a bit of a no-win situation for them. They're held to these unbelievable standards (which, arguably, could have been a result of unknown PED use at the time). If they decide to stay out of it and go natural then they suck to their fans (and country) once they start losing to everybody. If they decide to take the drugs then they are parriahs and charlatans once they are caught.
To completely oversimplify the situation, here are the choices:

- Continue to attempt to prevent athletes from using PEDs. We kinda know the upsides and downsides to this because it's what's currently going on.

- Quit trying to keep PEDs out of sports. Obviously the whole "is he cheating" question goes away. But here are the two main problems I anticipate coming out of that immediately: #1 many sports will turn into an arms race between who's got the better pharmacist, and #2 at what age will we allow kids to start taking PEDs and how are we going to manage that transition? For example, if we say you can't take PEDs until you're 18, what's that going to do to the transition from being a high school senior athlete to being a college freshman athlete? It also raises the question that success in sports may be slanted more towards those that can afford to have a "proper" PED program. That would raise issues about low-income athletes putting themselves at risk by "having to" deal with shady PEDs or low-quality programs in order to compete.

- Split sports into "natural" and "anything goes" leagues. The issue here is that a lot of sports simply can't survive as pro leagues if they lose half their fan base/dollars when they split.

There are issues no matter which way it's done. And none of this touches on the moral or ethical dilemma presented by athletes that harm their long term health through the usage of PEDs.

If NFL athletes can sue the league for the long term health affects of concussions, what would the lawsuits for sanctioned PED usage look like 10, 20, 40 years from now?

Honestly, I'd be willing to look at option 2 or 3, but I think there are a lot of problems that would need solutions before a sport could move that direction.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:55 AM   #70
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Interesting debate/perspectives.

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Old 10-12-2012, 01:47 AM   #71
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i'm grateful for LiveStrong.com though, which i read for quick health & nutrition info
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:36 PM   #72
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Here is another great read: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net...+Affidavit.pdf

all the info can be found here: http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

I will say this, NO ONE should feel like they need to take anything to be competitive, lots of people say, "oh let them take whatever they want, blah, blah", but as an athlete you shouldn't be forced to do so to remain competitive.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:12 PM   #73
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Here is another great read: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net...+Affidavit.pdf

all the info can be found here: http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

I will say this, NO ONE should feel like they need to take anything to be competitive, lots of people say, "oh let them take whatever they want, blah, blah", but as an athlete you shouldn't be forced to do so to remain competitive.

In its simplicity, yes, I agree. Unfortunately performance enchancing drugs are so ingrained into the ethos of competitive sports that a truly drug-free environment is a pipe dream.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:19 PM   #74
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In its simplicity, yes, I agree. Unfortunately performance enchancing drugs are so ingrained into the ethos of competitive sports that a truly drug-free environment is a pipe dream.
Nevermind the fact that most people base their anti-PED arguments on "level playing field" ideas. Until we ban people with unusually high growth hormone levels, high testosterone levels, XYY males, etc...the idea of a level playing field is a farce.
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Originally Posted by jacques chirac View Post
I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:22 PM   #75
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Nevermind the fact that most people base their anti-PED arguments on "level playing field" ideas. Until we ban people with unusually high growth hormone levels, high testosterone levels, XYY males, etc...the idea of a level playing field is a farce.

Totally agree! The field is NEVER completely level.

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Old 10-12-2012, 03:30 PM   #76
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Nevermind the fact that most people base their anti-PED arguments on "level playing field" ideas. Until we ban people with unusually high growth hormone levels, high testosterone levels, XYY males, etc...the idea of a level playing field is a farce.

i think that is the point of being "talented" and "gifted". It's what separates the top .0001% from their competitors. Why ban someone with unusually high test or an amazing vo2max? It's like cheating to get into harvard because I'm not smart enough and I want to "level the playing field".
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:52 PM   #77
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i think that is the point of being "talented" and "gifted". It's what separates the top .0001% from their competitors. Why ban someone with unusually high test or an amazing vo2max? It's like cheating to get into harvard because I'm not smart enough and I want to "level the playing field".
I'm not suggesting we ban genetic freaks. I'm suggesting, if someone has an advantage that's easily replicable through science, we allow the others to match that advantage.
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Originally Posted by jacques chirac View Post
I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:35 PM   #78
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Lance Armstrong doesn't do what Lance Armstrong does for Lance Armstrong.

Lance Armstrong does what Lance Armstrong does because Lance Armstrong is Lance Armstrong.
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Either pursue her and risk getting Mono, or don't pursue her,...stay home and use your Mano.

It's either Mono or Mano .... You decide

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Old 10-12-2012, 06:51 PM   #79
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I'm not suggesting we ban genetic freaks. I'm suggesting, if someone has an advantage that's easily replicable through science, we allow the others to match that advantage.
We could debate that principle for a while and I bet we'd find a lot of common ground.

But in practice, doesn't that sound like a potential mess? Whose HGH or testosterone levels will athletes be allowed to match via supplements? The highest ever? The highest that season? If we establish a "norm", are we going to have a handicapping method for those that are naturally higher than the norm?

Biochemistry and it's resultant abilities is a complex equation. Are we very quickly just going to let an athlete supplement their biochemistry until they can achieve certain resullts? If you can run a 4.4 naturally, you're done, but if you run a 4.6, you can use whatever you need to use until you can run a 4.4?

I realize that it might take several hundred posts if we got really into detail, but just in a general sense, how do you envision such a system being implemented?
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:46 PM   #80
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Any more affidavits from the other riders?
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Either pursue her and risk getting Mono, or don't pursue her,...stay home and use your Mano.

It's either Mono or Mano .... You decide
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