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General E46 Forum
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
Doesn't surprise me you would agree with lifting the car using a jack from there (green locations)

Is this correct?
Yep. Do it, and have done it, for years....at least on the e30. I'd be more inclined to jack on the jack pad and put the jack stand itself on the rail, though.


Care to comment on this, since I mentioned that I think your advice is bad?
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I never, never ever jack "one side and then the other." This puts lateral loads on the jack stands, which are sketchy enough as-is in my opinion.
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:45 AM   #42
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Again, like I said, people are talking about lifting one corner of the car at a time using a jack. They're not talking using a lift that costs five-figures to lift both "rails" using their entire length. The load would be distributed evenly in that case. Not in the case with a autozone jack with a small solid iron puck smaller than your fist. Big difference. Again, lifting points were put into place for a reason.

Your cars, guys. Once you damage the floor, there's no going back.

Words are important, people. Look at them carefully!
Yes I 100% agree that you should not lift a corner by the "rails". I hope that was clear in my post, I only use the "rails" for jack STAND joints when lifting the entire car off the ground, front to back. And the stand covers the entire width of the "rail".
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:48 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by lcoleman View Post

Care to comment on this, since I mentioned that I think your advice is bad?
My advice is never bad. At the end of the day, I suggest using the proper lifting points of the vehicle. Your success depends on you.

I recommend bleeding the cooling system with the car off and cold. Whether you listen to Metallica or Snoop Dogg while doing it is your choice!
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:50 AM   #44
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Yes I 100% agree that you should not lift a corner by the "rails". I hope that was clear in my post, I only use the "rails" for jack STAND joints when lifting the entire car off the ground, front to back. And the stand covers the entire width of the "rail".
I don't see any point whatsoever in using "the rails" to support or lift the car in any way. What are the jackpad areas being used for during this supporting by the frame rails????? Are you painting the jackpads or something?
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:54 AM   #45
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BMW TIS:

Important!
The vehicle may only be raised at the four reinforced supports!

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Last edited by Mango; 10-25-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:04 PM   #46
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I don't see any point whatsoever in using "the rails" to support or lift the car in any way. What are the jackpad areas being used for during this supporting by the frame rails????? Are you painting the jackpads or something?
Maybe
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:21 PM   #47
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BMW TIS:

Important!
The vehicle may only be raised at the four reinforced supports!
Guess that rules out using the rear subframe, right?

Practice > theory. Your method of doing one side at a time is dangerous at best.

By the way, have you ever seen the material under the jacking pads? Surely you've replaced them as part of your PM regimen. It's pretty thin, in fact, thinner than the material on the "rails" I bet.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:25 PM   #48
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I figure the next time I need to jack my car up I'll just use the center jack point in the frong. Crushing a little, from what everyone's said, doesn't do anything terrible. Last time I lifted it using a jack and put a stand under the control arm incase of jack failure, but next job is suspension so that won't really work.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:40 PM   #49
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Guess that rules out using the rear subframe, right?

Practice > theory. Your method of doing one side at a time is dangerous at best.

By the way, have you ever seen the material under the jacking pads? Surely you've replaced them as part of your PM regimen. It's pretty thin, in fact, thinner than the material on the "rails" I bet.
You are dangerous. No more barnyard behavior, please.

BTW:



As I said, four jacking points, front subframe jacking point (if applicable--M3 or earlier non-M E46s), or rear subframe jacking point.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:42 PM   #50
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I figure the next time I need to jack my car up I'll just use the center jack point in the frong. Crushing a little, from what everyone's said, doesn't do anything terrible. Last time I lifted it using a jack and put a stand under the control arm incase of jack failure, but next job is suspension so that won't really work.
Anything that crushes or deforms means your lifting platform isn't stable. Instability can result in injury or death. (or just plain old property damage.)

My advice is: don't.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:07 PM   #51
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The green location is welded to the Front Engine Support (which is also a major impact absorber), as evidenced both here:



and here: http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/04/55/01

Quote:
From wheel arch side, expose and open welding spots and weld seams
- engine support front section to engine support reinforcement
- engine support front section to rear engine support
- front wheel arch to engine support front section
Rear Engine Support is welded in the front to Front Engine Support (AKA front impact absorber):



Front Engine Support is an extremely rigid structural component of the car, and is one of the reasons why our cars are so safe. The green location is essentially where that weld begins, which is why it feels so solid and rigid. It is also part of the mount for the shock absorber:



Those engine supports are not just for the floor pan, and probably do little to support the floor pan overall. Those two rails that are in the center, however, do seem to directly support the floor pan and are connected right to it. That is not a place to lift from. You will bend the floor pan guaranteed if you lift from those center points.

If you lift by the green location, or as close to it as possible, you will be just fine.

After doing my own research and calling a few shops, that is what I have concluded.

If anyone has a solid rebuttal as to why the front section of Rear Engine Support would be a bad location to lift from, your comments are welcome and appreciated.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:20 PM   #52
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You can't justify lifting the vehicle from a certain point simply because it's welded to another point.

You guys are overthinking this. Lift the vehicle safely only from reinforced or solid points designed for the task. Don't create your own jacking points just cause "I've been doing it for years," or, "it seems fine."

Four jack pads, rear subframe, or front subframe central point, if applicable. Period.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:26 PM   #53
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You can't justify lifting the vehicle from a certain point simply because it's welded to another point.
It's welded to that point because it provides additional support for the overall Engine Support system.

The rest of this does not exactly apply to the E46:

As another rebuttal to that, yes you can lift a vehicle from a certain point just because it is welded to another point. Pinch welds, for example, are good jack stand locations and jacking points (with the right adapter).

I am sure car manufacturers do not advise lifting from the front or rear tow hook, yet it is common practice in nearly every shop to jack from that point if they do not have a lift. They then usually put the jack stands under the pinch welds.

I've been doing a lot of reading into this the past few days just to make sure.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:29 PM   #54
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It's welded to that point because it provides additional support for the overall Engine Support system.

The rest of this does not exactly apply to the E46:

As another rebuttal to that, yes you can lift a vehicle from a certain point just because it is welded to another point. Pinch welds, for example, are good jack stand locations and jacking points (with the right adapter).

I am sure car manufacturers do not advise lifting from the front or rear tow hook, yet it is common practice in nearly every shop to jack from that point if they do not have a lift. They then usually put the jack stands under the pinch welds.

I've been doing a lot of reading into this the past few days just to make sure.
So lets say the above is true (which it's not) what's with the need for hipster lifting points? Why not use those things called "jack pads"? It even has the word "jack" in the name!
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:33 PM   #55
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This argument seems pointless. Both ways work, although my opinion is that yours is dangerous and your opinion is that my floor pan is totally crushed. Try, really hard, to remove your ego from the discussion. There is no "period." There is no "barnyard behavior." Both ways work. Mine is safer. If you can't prove me wrong without insults, I think people will form their own conclusions.

An e30, but note how the "frame rails" are similar, and capable of supporting the vehicle. This is widely documented.



Done arguing, so ciao.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:58 PM   #56
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This argument seems pointless. Both ways work, although my opinion is that yours is dangerous and your opinion is that my floor pan is totally crushed. Try, really hard, to remove your ego from the discussion. There is no "period." There is no "barnyard behavior." Both ways work. Mine is safer. If you can't prove me wrong without insults, I think people will form their own conclusions.

An e30, but note how the "frame rails" are similar, and capable of supporting the vehicle. This is widely documented.



Done arguing, so ciao.
There was never an argument. Not sure why you continue to push your barnyard tactics on people. There is no debate on this. Whatsoever.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:02 PM   #57
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Real men lift the car up by hand and place jackstands under the appropriate points. I'm not going to tell you what I use for an impact hammer.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:06 PM   #58
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Real men lift the car up by hand and place jackstands under the appropriate points. I'm not going to tell you what I use for an impact hammer.
Pits are for men, lifts are for puss*es.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:11 PM   #59
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Pits are for men, lifts are for puss*es.
Oh no, brother. I mean lift it with your hands. Literally. Or dig a pit with your bare hands. That'll work, too.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:14 PM   #60
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So lets say the above is true (which it's not) what's with the need for hipster lifting points? Why not use those things called "jack pads"? It even has the word "jack" in the name!
I thought jack pads were for ... Oh never mind.

I'm with choxor, although I usually just hold it up for whatever work I doing. Real men don't need jack stands. I'll set it on my knee if its going to be a lengthy job
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