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Old 11-04-2012, 08:12 AM   #181
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Rich, thanks for explaining. So much for the part number research!

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Old 11-04-2012, 11:35 AM   #182
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Thanks for posting this information but maybe I'm reading incorrectly... it seems that Rich does not identify which racks exactly (what MY/build date). Part#s (or pictures of the actual ZF stamp of the parts pictured would be great as well as a side by side comparison. I'm still not sure what parts he is saying is different. If it's different, then by all means it's different and we've learned something based on actual information. but until then what Rich posted is just a bunch of paragraphs and a mess of jumbled photos of dirty parts.

For all we know, he's comparing an early 330 rack (or other e46 rack) and comparing it to a ZHP rack
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:41 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
Thanks for posting this information but maybe I'm reading incorrectly... it seems that Rich does not identify which racks exactly (what MY/build date). Part#s (or pictures of the actual ZF stamp of the parts pictured would be great as well as a side by side comparison. I'm still not sure what parts he is saying is different. If it's different, then by all means it's different and we've learned something based on actual information. but until then what Rich posted is just a bunch of paragraphs and a mess of jumbled photos of dirty parts.

For all we know, he's comparing an early 330 rack (or other e46 rack) and comparing it to a ZHP rack
He's more qualified than anyone in this thread to tell us this information. He's relaying exactly what he heard from ZF about this.

Like he said, contact them and ask them if you want to debate it. As for me, I don't give enough of a **** to do that, and I pretty much totally believe that guy. There's no good reason for me not to - no on here on these forums would pretend to be a Rack Doctor technician and post this.

The fact that Rack Doctor separates out ZHP racks from standard racks tells me that there's a difference and some different way BMW identified them at the factory.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:01 PM   #184
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:o wow. So... This is interesting.
Yes it would be nice to know how bmw told them apart. If the zhp rack is one ending in 712 it would seem that other 330s received the same rack other than the zhp cars
excellent point and well spoken.
thank you rich for explaining how a rack works, very informative, even if it was just a bunch of words and dirty pics, i mean who could understand that...
so rich, just to clairify, and i believe this has been the question all along, are all 712 racks the same? according to you they are not, the torsion rod is different. if not, how do you tell them apart?
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:12 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
Thanks for posting this information but maybe I'm reading incorrectly... it seems that Rich does not identify which racks exactly (what MY/build date). Part#s (or pictures of the actual ZF stamp of the parts pictured would be great as well as a side by side comparison. I'm still not sure what parts he is saying is different. If it's different, then by all means it's different and we've learned something based on actual information. but until then what Rich posted is just a bunch of paragraphs and a mess of jumbled photos of dirty parts.

For all we know, he's comparing an early 330 rack (or other e46 rack) and comparing it to a ZHP rack
It's pretty funny, he actually called me today regarding this thread and we talked for a bit. Great guy.
He basically said the typical 2002+ rack for the 330 was the purple 416? (Can't remember the exact number)
The yellow 712 is the zhp rack. He said that there are definitely some variables where other 330's had the zhp rack. He even stated a case where he saw a 323 with a yellow 712 rack. But he said in 90%+ cases the yellow 712 rack was the zhp rack and came on the zhp cars.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:56 AM   #186
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It's pretty funny, he actually called me today regarding this thread and we talked for a bit. Great guy.
He basically said the typical 2002+ rack for the 330 was the purple 416? (Can't remember the exact number)
The yellow 712 is the zhp rack. He said that there are definitely some variables where other 330's had the zhp rack. He even stated a case where he saw a 323 with a yellow 712 rack. But he said in 90%+ cases the yellow 712 rack was the zhp rack and came on the zhp cars.
The rack on my car is a 712 rack...




The rack on my friend's 2005 ZHP (pic taken on the same day):



712

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Originally Posted by Zell View Post
He's more qualified than anyone in this thread to tell us this information. He's relaying exactly what he heard from ZF about this.

Like he said, contact them and ask them if you want to debate it. As for me, I don't give enough of a **** to do that, and I pretty much totally believe that guy. There's no good reason for me not to - no on here on these forums would pretend to be a Rack Doctor technician and post this.

The fact that Rack Doctor separates out ZHP racks from standard racks tells me that there's a difference and some different way BMW identified them at the factory.
Uh. He sells racks.

More clarification will be needed. Something is fishy about his comparison. The way the pictures are (or aren't) presented.

The fact that the racks have the same part numbers should be the nail in the coffin. Still not sure how TWO different parts will have IDENTICAL stamps.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:06 PM   #187
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So what you're saying is that the ZHP is not special. Because its not special, not in any way.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:09 PM   #188
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:14 PM   #189
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The rack on my car is a 712 rack...




The rack on my friend's 2005 ZHP (pic taken on the same day):



712



Uh. He sells racks.

More clarification will be needed. Something is fishy about his comparison. The way the pictures are (or aren't) presented.

The fact that the racks have the same part numbers should be the nail in the coffin. Still not sure how TWO different parts will have IDENTICAL stamps.
...I don't think you even read my post did you. Go back and read it again. Maybe you'll understand.
The 712 racks ARE THE SAME end of story holy piss!!
The zhps always came with the 712 rack. Most 330s did NOT come with the 712 rack but there were a few that did. He even mentioned a 712 rack from a 323.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:02 PM   #190
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Hello again,
I was going to make a post "AGAIN" but figured since people are looking for tech I would hold off. I went ahead and ordered a few dozen cores today and will tear them down and show the difference in the gears I will also display the Tags

Just for fun has anyone considered that ZF racks are not the only racks that were offered in the 02-05 330 the 330 also had TRW manufactured Rack and pinions in them !!!!!!!!!

ZF purple 678 tag 330 or a TRW Rack !!!!!!



ZF yellow 712 tag rack 330 ZHP

I am just back from the SEMA Show and swamped I will try to free up some time and get these torn down this week

Have fun
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:07 PM   #191
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That Video made my day Thank you !!!!!!

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:07 PM   #192
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well interesting post from Rich. i had contacted him about this since he builds racks and he said he had some info to share later. didn't think he'd be able to do so this soon.

from what i gather he has answered some questions and maybe made some new ones.
so the ratio is the same as we have been telling people. but the internal vavling may be what is different to it's feel.

so is he saying there is a special run by ZF of zhp racks with the different vavling? or that after a certain time ZF changed the internal valving on all the racks? i'm not sure what he's saying or implying.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:17 PM   #193
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Seems like what he is saying is that SOME 2002+ 330s share the SAME rack with ZHPs and SOME don't (TRW or whatever 678 tag).

My guess is still the same based on reasonable evidence of the same yellow 712 tags for 02+ 330s (such as mine) and ZHPs and that the racks he actually tore down was one early 330 rack and ZHP rack.

I wonder if him tearing into these racks this way is a normal rebuilding process and isn't destructive? I can't imagine he would destroy lots of racks just to appease a forum. :-p
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:34 PM   #194
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Tear down / Break down / disassemble tomato ..... tomoto simply an industry term I will do a run for my inventory as I don't want to pull units that have already been remanufactured and break them down again.

Although this is more exhausting than actually building the racks LOL
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:34 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by peytonracer4 View Post
...I don't think you even read my post did you. Go back and read it again. Maybe you'll understand.
The 712 racks ARE THE SAME end of story holy piss!!
The zhps always came with the 712 rack. Most 330s did NOT come with the 712 rack but there were a few that did. He even mentioned a 712 rack from a 323.
ah so the .712 racks are all the same. so once again we have come back to the point that there is no "specific/unique" rack ONLY to the zhp. i think that's what we've been trying to say. but that may change my early stance that all later 330s have the same rack. they do have the same ratio but it's these ZF made .712 ones that have a different valving. maybe because they aren't ZF but made by TRW??
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Hello again,
I was going to make a post "AGAIN" but figured since people are looking for tech I would hold off I went ahead and ordered a few dozen cores today and will tear them down and show the difference in the gears. I will also display the Tags.
Just for fun has anyone considered that ZF racks are not the only racks that were offered in the 02-05 330 the 330 also had TRW manufactured Rack and pinions in them !!!!!!!!!

ZF purple 678 tag 330 or a TRW Rack !!!!!!
ZF yellow 712 tag rack 330 ZHP

Have fun
Rack Doc
so if i understand you correctly the .687 is the 13.7 ratio and "higher boosted" rack and the .712 is the 13.7 ratio "less boosted" rack. But as you said and not to be confused with it being ONLY on the 330-zhp. These are equipped on non-zhp E46s aswell.

i think since you have the most outside available data on these racks and seeing the Build Date and Serial numbers stamped on them will allow you to provide more info.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:45 PM   #196
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ah so the .712 racks are all the same. so once again we have come back to the point that there is no "specific/unique" rack ONLY to the zhp. i think that's what we've been trying to say. but that may change my early stance that all later 330s have the same rack. they do have the same ratio but it's these ZF made .712 ones that have a different valving. maybe because they aren't ZF but made by TRW??

so if i understand you correctly the .687 is the 13.7 ratio and "higher boosted" rack and the .712 is the 13.7 ratio "less boosted" rack. But as you said and not to be confused with it being ONLY on the 330-zhp. These are equipped on non-zhp E46s aswell.

i think since you have the most outside available data on these racks and seeing the Build Date and Serial numbers stamped on them we'll allow you to provide more info.
Really .... You will allow me ROFL !!!!!!

Thank you I'm Horored
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:01 PM   #197
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No worries,
I will go out on a limb here and say that after 20+ years in the steering industry I still learn every day. The forums are great wealth of information, and those who strive to learn are always to be commended. I am only posting to make an effort to share the knowledge that I have acquired. I may have a slight advantage as I can do follow up with customers to find out what core came out of their car and narrow it all down. Believe me I would prefer if they were all the same I could sell one part number. By separating them out I have to find cores and stock 3 racks for the 330 application.

The information about the torsion bar again came from ZF engineers (because I questioned just the same as others are) I will break Down (disassemble) some more of these units so WE can all learn together as the forum was intended. I am certainly not here to facilitate a fight or argument. Narrowing down Bimmer parts is like pulling teeth ***; it's just not all laughs. And customer feedback is always welcome.

I would have to say that after too many years in the automotive industry when we think we have learned it all we have already failed. There will always be a view point from a different angle to be considered, respected and evaluated. (everyone has something to offer)

As I mentioned I am way behind on Orders it's almost 10 pm and I have about 20 BMW units to build so I will fire up the machines and work into the late night hours. I will tear down (disassemble) a few units later in the week and take some measurements and allow you to be the judge. The gears do slightly differ however I do not think the difference will be entirely in the gear I am inclined to believe the engineers as to why they are different. I will post the info simply for the forum members ....... And yes it is time consuming (but fun) and does cost $$$$ in the end If I can help you all out then great I will do it for the team.

Be well
Rack Doc

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Old 11-05-2012, 09:26 PM   #198
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The tag I posted came off of a 2004 330 (NON ZHP)



There is also a 3rd Rack Manufactured By TRW

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Old 11-05-2012, 09:40 PM   #199
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Mango, until we get some more information step down. Your hostility is almost comical.

Same part number should be the same part. Clearly there was variation in racks during 330 production. Someone who knows more than you is now providing the information.

Sometimes I get the sense that you're here to preach, not to learn.

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Old 11-05-2012, 10:07 PM   #200
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Mango, until we get some more information step down. Your hostility is almost comical.

Same part number should be the same part. Clearly there was variation in racks during 330 production. Someone who knows more than you is now providing the information.

Sometimes I get the sense that you're here to preach, not to learn.
Agreed. I thought e90post and 1addicts had ridiculous know it alls.

I'm selling my zhp anyways, to get back into an N54 like my other bmw's were. One thing I wont miss here is mangos ego and attitude. All over a 9 year old car, worth maybe $12k.

I do like my zhp, but I realuze its just an option package. I really purchased ut for the wheels, body components, and interior bits. Yes, "OMG it drives better than the other 330i and e36 cars I drove", but opinions are just opinions, so who cares what I think, or what people Like mango "know"
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