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Old 11-06-2012, 04:44 PM   #261
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cheers, peyton. i agree. i actually think mango has admin/mod friends. i had several posts deleted today because i don't agree with mango. sad story is, tomorrow, he'll still be regarded as teh e46 expert. people take his opinion as fact. opinions are opinions. rack doctor has more facts. that, albeit ironic, is my opinion
i think mango might be the only person in this thread that doesn't get it. i might compile all the actual useful info so this thread can be locked or something.
good thing he can't even see what we're typing right now because he permanently blocked us
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:48 PM   #262
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well, i, for one, will not loose any sleep knowing that the great mango will not be reading my posts.


if i had more time and motivation, i would go back through this thread and quote all of mango's BS he passed on as facts. meh, not worth it to me. he wouldn't even see it since i'm now blocked
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:50 PM   #263
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Yeah, but you were also saying there was only one rack for 330's produced after MY 09/01, thanks to your part number "research" on realOEM. Any comments on that?
That actually was me. to me.
I was saying there was only the 13.7:1 ratio racks equipped from the factory on 330s. Which many argued and we find again is in fact True. BUT my reasoning it should have the same "feel"...which if what's been said last pages (if correct) Not correct in the regard of less boost. ..sorry about that Sean
Since there is said to be the other ZF 13.7:1 rack that is internally valved different and has more boost than the other. *Of note is that either of the (three?) are absolutely still a tighter quicker steering ratio than the 15.5:1 early ratio.
So again, there is no specific special run made "zhp" rack as been argued by some and NO the internals are not different in the .712 rack because it's a "zhp". The rack they seem to get is the same rack .712 that BMW has had out on 330s years before the "zhp" was released.

the TRW rack is the third possible rack one could find. i don't have the info to say when, why or how many were fitted. but it's not the sportier feel of the ZF .712 rack
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:51 PM   #264
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So what you're saying is that ZHP's are not special.

I don't like seeing you guys all wasting your time arguing over nothing. If this thread was cut down to the actual necessary information it would be two posts long.

Mango needs a mojito.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:52 PM   #265
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:53 PM   #266
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So what you're saying is that ZHP's are not special.

I don't like seeing you guys all wasting your time arguing over nothing. If this thread was cut down to the actual necessary information it would be two posts long.

Mango needs a mojito.
we all know Zhp's aren't special. they ALL have the same rack, however. some e46's, built after 09/01, have the same rack. in an ironic twist, it would appear that mango's e46 IS special, since other e46's have different racks.

i'm eager to read more from the rack doctor regarding this
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:55 PM   #267
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That actually was me. to me.
I was saying there was only the 13.7:1 ratio racks equipped from the factory on 330s. Which many argued and we find again is in fact True. BUT my reasoning it should have the same "feel"...which if what's been said last pages (if correct) Not correct in the regard of less boost. ..sorry about that Sean
Since there is said to be the other ZF 13.7:1 rack that is internally valved different and has more boost than the other. *Of note is that either of the (three?) are absolutely still a tighter quicker steering ratio than the 15.5:1 early ratio.
So again, there is no specific special run made "zhp" rack as been argued by some and NO the internals are not different in the .712 rack because it's a "zhp". The rack they seem to get is the same rack .712 that BMW has had out on 330s years before the "zhp" was released.

the TRW rack is the third possible rack one could find. i don't have the info to say when, why or how many were fitted. but it's not the sportier feel of the ZF .712 rack
i think the whole point is, the zhp will always get the 712 rack where as the regular 330 is a crapshoot between 3 different racks.
so for a VERY vague ratio: 100% of zhps will have nice steering from the 712. 30% of 330s will have nice steering from the 712.
this leaves a 60% possibility of someone noting an improvement when driving a zhp after owning a regular 330. this is why some people, but not all, note a better feel in the zhp.
agree?
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:02 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by peytonracer4 View Post
i think the whole point is, the zhp will always get the 712 rack where as the regular 330 is a crapshoot between 3 different racks.
so for a VERY vague ratio: 100% of zhps will have nice steering from the 712. 30% of 330s will have nice steering from the 712.
this leaves a 60% possibility of someone noting an improvement when driving a zhp after owning a regular 330. this is why some people, but not all, note a better feel in the zhp.
agree?
Precisely, sans fudged probability numbers Who knows what the real numbers are.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:11 PM   #269
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:31 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by peytonracer4 View Post
i think the whole point is, the zhp will always get the 712 rack where as the regular 330 is a crapshoot between 3 different racks.
so for a VERY vague ratio: 100% of zhps will have nice steering from the 712. 30% of 330s will have nice steering from the 712.
this leaves a 60% possibility of someone noting an improvement when driving a zhp after owning a regular 330. this is why some people, but not all, note a better feel in the zhp.
agree?
No the whole point was that the 330zhp had a specific unique and special 13.7 ratio that was ONLY found on it. And that you had to get a rack out of a zhp to get this rack. We found, and argued til blue it had the same 13.7 quick ratio as other 330s. But now we are told there likely are other 13.7 ratio racks for the E46 that made it into cars. These are not as coveted as the ZF .712.

So to be sure get it out of a 330zhp. If not, be sure it's the .712 ZF rack out of an E46.

I don't know where you get your figures/percentages, but they are in no way facts at this point. Let's not rush it. I do however feel Rich is correct to bring forth the different valving the .712 Yellow tag has. That's important and absolutley changes things!
But until some people in the USA start posting up there 330 factory equipped .678 racks in later production 330s it will be hard to say. It could be as simple as some .678 racks were in some BMW factories, maybe the whole USA overboosted rack retrofit and stopping of these being fitted and made for BMWUSA delivery? Maybe they are only on the 325s or wagons or convetibles?? I don't know yet but look forward to finding out if there is a pattern.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:43 PM   #271
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No the whole point was that the 330zhp had a specific unique and special 13.7 ratio that was ONLY found on it. And that you had to get a rack out of a zhp to get this rack. We found, and argued til blue it had the same 13.7 quick ratio as other 330s. But now we are told there likely are other 13.7 ratio racks for the E46 that made it into cars. These are not as coveted as the ZF .712.

So to be sure get it out of a 330zhp. If not, be sure it's the .712 ZF rack out of an E46.

I don't know where you get your figures/percentages, but they are in no way facts at this point. Let's not rush it. I do however feel Rich is correct to bring forth the different valving the .712 Yellow tag has. That's important and absolutley changes things!
But until some people in the USA start posting up there 330 factory equipped .678 racks in later production 330s it will be hard to say. It could be as simple as some .678 racks were in some BMW factories, maybe the whole USA overboosted rack retrofit and stopping of these being fitted and made for BMWUSA delivery? Maybe they are only on the 325s or wagons or convetibles?? I don't know yet but look forward to finding out if there is a pattern.
my percentages were just random figures to help illustrate things for people like mango. it just helps show that there were other racks used in the 330 and that not all of them had the 712 rack. i do agree it would be cool to figure out exactly how many had which racks. i guess we'll have to wait and see.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:45 PM   #272
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i've compiled all the useful info in this thread along with some pics that people have posted. PLEASE don't crap up that thread. it is for facts only. we can continue to argue in here

http://forum.E46Fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=954523
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:17 AM   #273
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i've compiled all the useful info in this thread along with some pics that people have posted. PLEASE don't crap up that thread. it is for facts only. we can continue to argue in here

http://forum.E46Fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=954523
I don't want to post in your new thread to ignite more drama. Thank you though for compiling the FACTS. Hopefully, opinions can stay in this thread. We all know who I mean
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:36 AM   #274
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I don't want to post in your new thread to ignite more drama. Thank you though for compiling the FACTS. Hopefully, opinions can stay in this thread. We all know who I mean
i may talk to rich and see if he'd be willing to still do that tear down and compare the 712 rack to the 678 rack for that thread. regardless i think the info is very useful when it's not surrounded by crap. from all of us. lol
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:57 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by peytonracer4 View Post
i've compiled all the useful info in this thread along with some pics that people have posted. PLEASE don't crap up that thread. it is for facts only. we can continue to argue in here
http://forum.E46Fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=954523
i'm all good with posting info that we have found to be updated and the most correct.
BUT...i think you jumped the gun posting some things as Fact. we do not know for a fact or with-in reasonable doubt yet at this time:
1) if the '02 up 330s in the USA don't mostly (if not all) have the .712 rack from the factory. we should wait to see more late model 330 owners post their original rack numbers. for all we know they could be .712 racks as we have already seen posted. reasonable enough?
2) that All 330s with the "performance package" have the .712 rack and Never one of the others presented to be available. we don't know this yet. there are far too few 330zhps compared to non-330zhp to have gathered info. i would reach out to members/forums of 330zhp owners to gather this info at this time. we should be able to get a more clear and larger group of data in quick enough time to make a more educated and backed statement.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:03 AM   #276
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Rich stated the fact that he always receives 712 racks from zhp owners no matter what. This isn't just like 40 racks. It's quite a few. I do agree that it would be better to get a reading on exactly how common the 712 rack is outside of just the performance package. But according to rich, all 3 racks were available on 2002-2006 330s
He's the expert so ill take his word. I will edit the post as more information becomes available. But I just wanted to get the basic, usable information out of this thread and compile it into a crap free thread.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:01 AM   #277
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Rich stated the fact that he always receives 712 racks from zhp owners no matter what. This isn't just like 40 racks. It's quite a few. I do agree that it would be better to get a reading on exactly how common the 712 rack is outside of just the performance package. But according to rich, all 3 racks were available on 2002-2006 330s
He's the expert so ill take his word. I will edit the post as more information becomes available.
well Rich has said a few things and i agree his experience rebuilding E46 racks up to 12 yrs is above anyone else's here. but he is relying on some info from customers or salvage yards. that could be misleading if people provide him with incorrect info or if the rack isn't original equipment. example: he said he has recieved the .712 from a 323. i don't know anyone here that knows more about the 323 than me. the E46 323 never came with the 13.7 ratio rack from the factory. that is a FACT. the 13.7 was introduced later in the 330 after the 323 stopped being made. i have plenty of articles, bmw brochures and internal documents with this info (being an original '00 323Ci owner). the 15.5:1 was the ratio so something is amiss there. retrofitted or mistaken when sent in is a better bet. other unfortunate part of his data is that unless he is pulling it from the car himself, he's relying on someone else's info. i trust him, not the "general Q public" that aren't into cars so much. i doubt he would argue he doesn't get some numbskulls as customers that give him incorrect info from time to time.
the other things is that 330i/ci/cic-zh package were around for what, some 24-28 months for each model left in E46 production. that's not many. and of those late yrs that they were available there were so many more 325/330i/xi/iT/Ci/Cic in zsp and non-zsp. so statistically his shop shouldn't have come across that many 330-zhp .712 racks. if that be the case it would be more reasonable to deduce then if they break down that much for him to rebuild, the .712 rack is flawed(and i'm not saying that). the 330-zhp is the last yrs of each E46 model and "should" not have as many miles as the earlier year(or same years) 323/328/325/330s. so one really should not see that many of them??

i hope this comes off as reasonable/plausible to those reading and not being unwilling to move forward. it's late but i hope the reasoning behind it all solid and presented well enough to consider point presented. thanks.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:31 AM   #278
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well Rich has said a few things and i agree his experience rebuilding E46 racks up to 12 yrs is above anyone else's here. but he is relying on some info from customers or salvage yards. that could be misleading if people provide him with incorrect info or if the rack isn't original equipment. example: he said he has recieved the .712 from a 323. i don't know anyone here that knows more about the 323 than me. the E46 323 never came with the 13.7 ratio rack from the factory. that is a FACT. the 13.7 was introduced later in the 330 after the 323 stopped being made. i have plenty of articles, bmw brochures and internal documents with this info (being an original '00 323Ci owner). the 15.5:1 was the ratio so something is amiss there. retrofitted or mistaken when sent in is a better bet. other unfortunate part of his data is that unless he is pulling it from the car himself, he's relying on someone else's info. i trust him, not the "general Q public" that aren't into cars so much. i doubt he would argue he doesn't get some numbskulls as customers that give him incorrect info from time to time.
the other things is that 330i/ci/cic-zh package were around for what, some 24-28 months for each model left in E46 production. that's not many. and of those late yrs that they were available there were so many more 325/330i/xi/iT/Ci/Cic in zsp and non-zsp. so statistically his shop shouldn't have come across that many 330-zhp .712 racks. if that be the case it would be more reasonable to deduce then if they break down that much for him to rebuild, the .712 rack is flawed(and i'm not saying that). the 330-zhp is the last yrs of each E46 model and "should" not have as many miles as the earlier year(or same years) 323/328/325/330s. so one really should not see that many of them??

i hope this comes off as reasonable/plausible to those reading and not being unwilling to move forward. it's late but i hope the reasoning behind it all solid and presented well enough to consider point presented. thanks.
let's not get conceited/arrogant shall we? I can name a few members from the top of my head (hint...MITe46 who converted his 323 to an M3).

The 323 with a 712 rack is impossible since the production date for the car and rack doesn't match. However, this doesn't mean Rich is providing inaccurate info. Maybe the 323 owner had his original rack replaced by a 712 and then turn it (712) as a core years later.

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Old 11-07-2012, 08:25 AM   #279
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Well, here's a dealership ETK pic from a 07/2012 version ETK. There is only 1 rack available for post 09/2001 E46 cars.

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Old 11-07-2012, 08:46 AM   #280
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lol....alex323 is the GOD of the 323 apparently. in fact, he may have created the 323 in Bavaria. some say....
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