This is why people who have no business attending college, shouldn't be attending

Originally Posted by rjskalet

Do you have a reason for it or just personal preference?

By that size office politics become unbearable. Useless ppl get promoted, groups fight for power, cronyism etc. Engineering have less impact, mainly sales at that point.

At a startup we're fighting together like hell to survive. It's a strong bond and our code either win us a critical million dollar deal or put the company in danger of going under. Quite an exciting gamble and it's good that there's a core group of 7 of us that have consistently succeeded in the past. The payoff is quite nice when we do make it.

Originally Posted by rohde88

Leaders love to tout that a college graduate earns a million more than a HS graduate. Wasn't this the ROI analysis students were to rely on?

I think its skill specific.

Spending $50k to get a degree in Art History is one thing, spending $50k on an Engineering degree is another.

Fact is our society isn't cranking out the STEM grads like it use to, everyone has a law/business degree and getting there MBA(which I think is the lamest grad degree out there).

Obama has said it, industry has said it - stop with the business degrees, we need mathematics/scientists/engineers....which is exactly what China is doing.

Originally Posted by yousharenow

I think its skill specific.

Spending $50k to get a degree in Art History is one thing, spending $50k on an Engineering degree is another.

Fact is our society isn't cranking out the STEM grads like it use to, everyone has a law/business degree and getting there MBA(which I think is the lamest grad degree out there).

Obama has said it, industry has said it - stop with the business degrees, we need mathematics/scientists/engineers....which is exactly what China is doing.

I agree, but politicians never specified which degree to get. Hence, so many lazy basket weavers who can't pay their loans.

Originally Posted by rohde88

I agree, but politicians never specified which degree to get. Hence, so many lazy basket weavers who can't pay their loans.

..I would venture to hope not! It's not the govt's job to decree what to study in college.


Asian cultures just put more emphasis on the hard sciences it seems.

Originally Posted by yousharenow

..I would venture to hope not! It's not the govt's job to decree what to study in college.


Asian cultures just put more emphasis on the hard sciences it seems.

But by artificially lowering the cost of ALL degrees, people were lazy and used cheap money to buy worthless degrees.

China probably puts too much emphasis on science, creativity is important too.

the biggest thing to learn in any kind of liberal arts degree, and what universities should focus on in those degrees towards the end of the program, is marketing. How to sell yourself as more than a basket weaver, a historian, an political scientist, etc etc etc.

If you walk into a company and say "I'm a political scientist, give me a job" they're going to laugh at you and tell you they don't need a political scientist. If, however, you learned some valuable skills as a political science major, such as research, analysis, synthesis, how to process and evaluate disparate information sources into a concise summary, how to write (because God knows too few college graduates know how to do this basic task), and can translate those into a picture of how you are valuable to a company, finding a job is not nearly as hard as it may seem. The problem is that liberal arts majors walk out into the world with plan A, then can't understand why people aren't lining up to give them jobs.

An engineering degree spells out to the world exactly what kind of value you can potentially bring. A mechanical engineering major can fill a mechanical engineering job. A chemistry major can fill a chemists job. A liberal arts degree, well, again, you need to be able to market yourself.

Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer

the biggest thing to learn in any kind of liberal arts degree, and what universities should focus on in those degrees towards the end of the program, is marketing. How to sell yourself as more than a basket weaver, a historian, an political scientist, etc etc etc.

If you walk into a company and say "I'm a political scientist, give me a job" they're going to laugh at you and tell you they don't need a political scientist. If, however, you learned some valuable skills as a political science major, such as research, analysis, synthesis, how to process and evaluate disparate information sources into a concise summary, how to write (because God knows too few college graduates know how to do this basic task), and can translate those into a picture of how you are valuable to a company, finding a job is not nearly as hard as it may seem. The problem is that liberal arts majors walk out into the world with plan A, then can't understand why people aren't lining up to give them jobs.

An engineering degree spells out to the world exactly what kind of value you can potentially bring. A mechanical engineering major can fill a mechanical engineering job. A chemistry major can fill a chemists job. A liberal arts degree, well, again, you need to be able to market yourself.

+1, its a jungle and you gotta take what you want, not what you "deserve."

Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer

the biggest thing to learn in any kind of liberal arts degree, and what universities should focus on in those degrees towards the end of the program, is marketing. How to sell yourself as more than a basket weaver, a historian, an political scientist, etc etc etc.

If you walk into a company and say "I'm a political scientist, give me a job" they're going to laugh at you and tell you they don't need a political scientist. If, however, you learned some valuable skills as a political science major, such as research, analysis, synthesis, how to process and evaluate disparate information sources into a concise summary, how to write (because God knows too few college graduates know how to do this basic task), and can translate those into a picture of how you are valuable to a company, finding a job is not nearly as hard as it may seem. The problem is that liberal arts majors walk out into the world with plan A, then can't understand why people aren't lining up to give them jobs.

An engineering degree spells out to the world exactly what kind of value you can potentially bring. A mechanical engineering major can fill a mechanical engineering job. A chemistry major can fill a chemists job. A liberal arts degree, well, again, you need to be able to market yourself.

I was given the budget to expand my team and have worked with our company's recruiter to evaluate a number of rather qualified candidates.. and I'm SHOCKED at the lack of fundamental writing skills from applicants. This is a late 20's, college educated individual applying to work in sales (where communication is key) :

Originally Posted by Applicants cover letter/resume

Below is a simple back ground explanation about me.

...including details on certain clients and examples on how the software would be useful and benefit them as a company or government entity.

...different perspective on how the work environment is.

He has explained again more on the company’s goals and initiatives for the foreseeable future.

Now perhaps my catholic boys' school emphasized this skill-set more than most.. but how can a college grad (and semi-experienced professional) put together statements like the above to a potential employer?

Originally Posted by 2000_328CI

I was given the budget to expand my team and have worked with our company's recruiter to evaluate a number of rather qualified candidates.. and I'm SHOCKED at the lack of fundamental writing skills from applicants. This is a late 20's, college educated individual applying to work in sales (where communication is key) :



Now perhaps my catholic boys' school emphasized this skill-set more than most.. but how can a college grad (and semi-experienced professional) put together statements like the above to a potential employer?

until very recently, my mom was working with doctoral level students in a counseling program for a school in DC. She was always shocked at how poorly they wrote. And not just one or two, but the majority of them.

Going through high school, bachelor's programs, master's programs, and now as doctoral candidates. The lack of fundamentals is absolutely amazing.

Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer

until very recently, my mom was working with doctoral level students in a counseling program for a school in DC. She was always shocked at how poorly they wrote. And not just one or two, but the majority of them.

Going through high school, bachelor's programs, master's programs, and now as doctoral candidates. The lack of fundamentals is absolutely amazing.

Not just writing but math and science fundamentals too. It's a shame.

Originally Posted by bimmerfan08

Not just writing but math and science fundamentals too. It's a shame.

Smart people can do everything themselves. Successful people find a way to get smart people to do everything for them

what this doesn't show is his life outside of work. I am pretty much the definition of his corporate life but outside of work I would bet I have more fun than 90% of the population.

Originally Posted by 2000_328CI

What amazes me is what shell out their money (or parents' money) to learn.

NYU students paying 60k a year for a degree in Spanish or English or History or _________. If you're not going to school for an ROI, perhaps it's best to take a few years off, enter the working world via an entry level job, and piece together what you want to do... THEN go back to school with motivation, intent, and a bigger picture.

High schoolers today look at college as a time to move out from their parents, live on their own (which basically translates to live irresponsibly), and lose their virginity (if it's still there). That's NOT a valid reason to send the nation into record levels of debt.

As for "the value of a school", it's in the classmates not the text books. If you're surrounded by top tier piers (say Yale or Harvard), you're likely going to be exposed (both in the classroom and in your dormroom) to very high level thought processes, conversations, social networks, etc.. THAT is worth the money (and is why people go back for MBAs). To risk sounding snoody, the odds that you receive that at a run-of-the-mill private college are lower... If you're school isn't listed in the Forbes, USA Today, or other outlets "top 200 schools" you're wasting your money if you're not attending a very skill-specific university/college or a state school. Why would anyone in Maryland attend a rando private university when the University of Maryland has top rated business schools and other programs? That's just dumb (and yet, THOUSANDS do it every year)

Quoted for Truth

Originally Posted by DylloS

what this doesn't show is his life outside of work. I am pretty much the definition of his corporate life but outside of work I would bet I have more fun than 90% of the population.

yeah on paper that pic looks great, but in reality 98% of the people that say "F a 9 to 5 brooo im doing me!... YOLO" are broke and do nothing.

Originally Posted by FadeToblack

yeah on paper that pic looks great, but in reality 98% of the people that say "F a 9 to 5 brooo im doing me!... YOLO" are broke and do nothing.

I'm 25 sitting on 25 mill.

Originally Posted by yousharenow

I guess I take issue with your assumptions

(1) I have a friend circle of PhD/MD's/JD/Engineers. None went to a private college.
(3) I demand my kids go to CC , THEN to Uni...there's no point in paying all that money for a class you can take for 1/4th the cost. GF went on an athletic scholarship so she doesn't care, my company is paying for it and I still go the cheap route - but If I am paying for it - they will do it the cheap route, go to school, and work. I'm not paying all that money for room/board/tuition/beer when they could of gone down the street for the exact same credit.

Hanging around rich kids doesn't expose you to a "higher level through process" - it exposes you to a more sheltered one.

Obviously going to CC than college is cheaper, nobody is arguing that.

My argument only applies to the top universities, both private and public. If you were comparing some random private liberal arts college vs a good state school, it would be a no-brainer.

Hanging around rich kids doesn't do you any good, but hanging around SMART and MOTIVATED kids certainly shapes you and the others around you. The brightest and most motivated kids tend to go to the best schools. This is why the best universities are the best. It wouldn't matter if they had donkeys for teachers, as long as they kept their admissions criteria.

Originally Posted by Amoeba

By that size office politics become unbearable. Useless ppl get promoted, groups fight for power, cronyism etc. Engineering have less impact, mainly sales at that point.

At a startup we're fighting together like hell to survive. It's a strong bond and our code either win us a critical million dollar deal or put the company in danger of going under. Quite an exciting gamble and it's good that there's a core group of 7 of us that have consistently succeeded in the past. The payoff is quite nice when we do make it.

Sounds like fun! That is what I'd be doing if I hadn't picked my current field

Originally Posted by FadeToblack

[IMG]http://maxcdn.zenpencils.com/comics/2012-11-13-chrisg.jpg?9d7bd4/IMG]

good sh*t

Originally Posted by FadeToblack

productivity

communications degree....the best degree out there

Originally Posted by Amoeba

By that size office politics become unbearable. Useless ppl get promoted, groups fight for power, cronyism etc. Engineering have less impact, mainly sales at that point.

At a startup we're fighting together like hell to survive. It's a strong bond and our code either win us a critical million dollar deal or put the company in danger of going under. Quite an exciting gamble and it's good that there's a core group of 7 of us that have consistently succeeded in the past. The payoff is quite nice when we do make it.

When you say 800, do you mean 800 company-wide or 800 within a certain division or department?

My division has about 300-400 associates working in it. 14 of that 400 are engineers. Between product development engineers, R&D engineers, and the process engineers we are all very tight and rely on each other heavily to get our projects to commercialization and provide support to our customers. It's nice to have that niche group within an organization where you feel at home and know your closest colleagues personally. Plus I work for a private corporation so that's a big plus for me as an individual.