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Old 11-13-2012, 11:54 PM   #1
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2013 BMW M5 - Manual Transmission



BMW is 'bringing back the manual' - and trying to "keep it alive" -

The reviewer seems to prefer those whizzy dual clutch auto things over the manual????? -- I don't agree with the reviewer

Plus the manual did a 4.8 second or something 0 to 60 ! that's fab performance! I don't think those auto dual clutch things are that much faster??? Plus don't they need way more maintainence than standard manual transmission -


Everyone discuss the New M5 and if you are digging the manual tranny !
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:55 PM   #2
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Everyone discuss the New M5 and if you are digging the manual tranny !
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:00 AM   #3
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:13 AM   #4
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That's just counterproductive.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:28 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by KOpower View Post
BMW is 'bringing back the manual' - and trying to "keep it alive" -

The reviewer seems to prefer those whizzy dual clutch auto things over the manual????? -- I don't agree with the reviewer

Plus the manual did a 4.8 second or something 0 to 60 ! that's fab performance! I don't think those auto dual clutch things are that much faster??? Plus don't they need way more maintainence than standard manual transmission -


Everyone discuss the New M5 and if you are digging the manual tranny !
Yep, they are. Nissan GTR, Ferrari, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Mclaren, Le Mans Prototypes, Formula 1, etc... all use fully automated single or dual clutch transmissions because they are vastly faster and more intuitive than a standard manual transmission. Welcome to the year 2000.

Your claim of more maintenance is pretty insignificant in comparison to how complicated all the other parts of the new M5 are.

That said, it is nice that a standard manual transmission is offered. It brings the overall price of the car down, shows that BMW is putting an emphasis on performance, and gives something to the aging "purists" (and the hipsters) who still like to use a foot actuated clutch and manually engage each gear.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:37 AM   #6
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Why the hell would you spend 100k plus on a sports sedan and row your own gears?

It's 2012 goddammit
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:07 AM   #7
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I actually expected BMW to start doing away with manual transmissions. Not in the lowly 3-series but in the higher models. Thought I read something along those lines.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:19 AM   #8
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Just because an airplane has a really nice autopilot doesn't mean it shouldn't be nice to fly manually.

If you assume the purpose of a car is to be fun, and that speed is not directly correlated to fun, then it's entirely reasonable to say a manual transmission, a fun and engaging way to interact with a car, is still a very necessary option.

My brother in law got an f10 M5 and I had a good run around an airport and then some in it, and it didn't do much for me. Very fast, but a bit boring. The DCT kept getting in the way.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:40 AM   #9
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I agree for formula 1 racing and driving a Ferrari or Bugatti or whatever the dual clutch auto is just necessary - as these are SUPER cars

but for the rest of us manual is just more intuitive and still plenty damn quick on the race track

I agree my maintenance argument is not much relevant as the M5 is pretty damn complicated with expensive parts already

I just think phasing out manuals altogether is definitely a step back in driving pleasure
I think there will always be a space for manual cars in the market (although one that will keep getting smaller)

Also as someone said - 'auto pilot' is pretty damn boring!!
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:42 AM   #10
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Well, Hamilton who drives an F1 car for a living special ordered his Pagani Zonda with a manual. He drives cars with the most advanced, fastest shifting sequential trannys in the World, but he stated he prefers to shift himself.

As someone who had a manual, then auto, now wants a manual again. I hate driving autos, but that's my preference, and plenty of people feel the opposite. I hope traditional manuals will stay available, at least they do for now.

As for lowering the price of the new M5, it doesn't actually, the manual will be a no cost option.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:05 AM   #11
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This M5 is targeted at the 1%-ers of this world. I don't think a few G's here or there will matter to them when it comes down to buying price and options. Just imagine if you were to finance this sled, your monthly stroke would likely be in excess of $2,000.00 per month, with no cash down. Yikes!
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:23 AM   #12
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Just because an airplane has a really nice autopilot doesn't mean it shouldn't be nice to fly manually.
That example is more analogous with cruise control.

I dare you to find any pilot of any modern plane, or perhaps in this case something a little more high performance (ex., F-22, F/A-18, F-35, F-15, etc.) and tell them that simply because their planes have nice fly-by-wire systems that it doesn't mean it shouldn't be nice to fly them with mechanical/manually operated flight control systems.

And you call yourself a pilot?
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:10 PM   #13
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That example is more analogous with cruise control.

I dare you to find any pilot of any modern plane, or perhaps in this case something a little more high performance (ex., F-22, F/A-18, F-35, F-15, etc.) and tell them that simply because their planes have nice fly-by-wire systems that it doesn't mean it shouldn't be nice to fly them with mechanical/manually operated flight control systems.

And you call yourself a pilot?
Hah I'll happily do that. The jet I fly has a brake by wire system and it's absolutely atrocious, I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. There's still a great many aircraft out there which function hydraulically, hell the A-10 still uses cables! Ask someone who's flown a Boeing or Embraer and then an airbus which they prefer, you'll get a consistent answer every time.

An effective autopilot system includes you in the control process, allowing as much or as little adjustment of its flight path and characteristics as the pilot chooses. With a fully automated system like the BMW uses, you don't have that option. What if I'm on one of the many incredibly steep hills of San Francisco and want to hold the parking brake to ease the load on the clutch? You can't, shy of left foot braking and hoping the computer doesn't get disgruntled.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:00 PM   #14
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Well, Hamilton who drives an F1 car for a living special ordered his Pagani Zonda with a manual. He drives cars with the most advanced, fastest shifting sequential trannys in the World, but he stated he prefers to shift himself.

As someone who had a manual, then auto, now wants a manual again. I hate driving autos, but that's my preference, and plenty of people feel the opposite. I hope traditional manuals will stay available, at least they do for now.

As for lowering the price of the new M5, it doesn't actually, the manual will be a no cost option.
That has to be an extra $1000-2000 in BMW's pocket for every manual transmission sold then.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:41 PM   #15
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That has to be an extra $1000-2000 in BMW's pocket for every manual transmission sold then.
BMW are so damn greedy now days - they'll make the 'purist' pay for the privilege !

Didn't know Hamilton was such a big manual fan!
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:43 PM   #16
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That has to be an extra $1000-2000 in BMW's pocket for every manual transmission sold then.
Not really. The cost of developing and testing the manual is not small and with the volume being so low I bet it is a close to break even proposition for them. Otherwise they would offer manual in everything and hope people buy it.

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Old 11-14-2012, 04:57 PM   #17
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^ good point ...
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:41 AM   #18
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Not really. The cost of developing and testing the manual is not small and with the volume being so low I bet it is a close to break even proposition for them. Otherwise they would offer manual in everything and hope people buy it.

Tim
It's not a new transmission, just a "beefed up existing transmission." So not much cost.
source: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...e_2012_bmw_m5/

If you're willing to bet it's a break even proposition, I'm willing to bet it's $2k+ in BMW's pocket. The wager is a premium forum membership for me if I win, or I buy a basic membership if you win. We'll have our answer once the pricing shows up on RealOEM.com or wherever.


F10 M5 Manual Transmission GS6-53BZ Part No. 23002284301 $$$$
F10 M5 Dual-clutch transmission GS7D36BG Part No. 28007843840 $$$$
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:51 AM   #19
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I'm willing to wager but we'll never know who is right. It is the development cost, not the parts that I'm talking about. It probably costs BMW $1M plus to test and fine tune a transmission. If you're talking about the DCT you can spread that 1M over thousands of cars sold. For the manual the take rate is really low so you've got many less vehicles to spread the costs to. So the parts might be cheaper but any additional "profit" from the lower hardware costs is going right to R&D costs.

I've talked to people in BMW at length about this. This isn't something I'm guests on, this is exactly why they don't offer manual on everything. They cannot justify the cost when they won't see the return.

Tim

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Old 11-15-2012, 01:28 PM   #20
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I will always have at least one manual car in the stable. I will say an auto is nice to have if you want to sit back and drink your latte, smoke a cigarette in a smokeless car (like adding an ashtray makes you want to smoke), and read/send text messages. There is no doubt the performance auto can shift way faster, but who cares. In any performance car by the time you need to shift your already going fast enough to get a speeding ticket. I believe they are cheaper to own though. If you disagree ask the SMG owners who had to buy a pump.

Adv of Clutch
1. Cheaper to Maint
2. Can pop the clutch if starter doesn't work or dead battery
3. Keeps me involved
4. Feels great minus rush hour/wreck on highway
5. Usually cheaper
6. Extra security - thief may not be able to drive stick

Adv of Auto
1. Any moron can drive the car
2. Great for rush hour
3. Forget I am even driving...
4. Good for Luxury cars, Trucks, and SUV's - unless it's a Dodge
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