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Old 11-15-2012, 01:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkodama View Post
Yep, they are. Nissan GTR, Ferrari, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Mclaren, Le Mans Prototypes, Formula 1, etc... all use fully automated single or dual clutch transmissions because they are vastly faster and more intuitive than a standard manual transmission. Welcome to the year 2000.

Your claim of more maintenance is pretty insignificant in comparison to how complicated all the other parts of the new M5 are.

That said, it is nice that a standard manual transmission is offered. It brings the overall price of the car down, shows that BMW is putting an emphasis on performance, and gives something to the aging "purists" (and the hipsters) who still like to use a foot actuated clutch and manually engage each gear.
I have to agree. My DCT ///M is a beast are DCT's are bulletproof transmissions btw. I have a manual 330ci with 250k miles but I love the Dual Clutch.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:05 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
I'm willing to wager but we'll never know who is right. It is the development cost, not the parts that I'm talking about. It probably costs BMW $1M plus to test and fine tune a transmission. If you're talking about the DCT you can spread that 1M over thousands of cars sold. For the manual the take rate is really low so you've got many less vehicles to spread the costs to. So the parts might be cheaper but any additional "profit" from the lower hardware costs is going right to R&D costs.

I've talked to people in BMW at length about this. This isn't something I'm guests on, this is exactly why they don't offer manual on everything. They cannot justify the cost when they won't see the return.

Tim
That seems a bit odd, tacking on a "development fee" to only the manual transmission cars, but I guess it makes sense. I'd think that would create a scenario where you can buy a brand new DCT car, immediately take off the transmission and sell it, buy a new manual transmission, and pay for installation with the difference in price.

Either way, it seems like people really don't care for manual transmissions in a 5 series anymore.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:20 PM   #23
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BMW was probably looking at the total cost to develop a new car and ways to cut out waste. If a variant of any product costs more in R&D then it brought in for revenue any business would be cut it. You would in effect be making more money while doing less. Going beyond the R&D costs the less variants you have in your product line means you have a smaller supply chain, and so on. The effects are multiplied throughout the company.

Again I've talked to people in BMW at length about this. There are plenty of enthusiasts that work there that want to see manuals in more cars but there has to be a business case. As automatics and flappy paddle transmissions get better and better fewer and fewer still want a true manual and the case to continue producing them gets harder and harder.

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Old 11-15-2012, 02:46 PM   #24
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Why the hell would you spend 100k plus on a sports sedan and row your own gears?

It's 2012 goddammit
I couldn't agree more. Between the watered down steering, engine noise played through the stereo system and 4,000 pound plus curb weight, a manual in the F10 M5 is too little too late. This car has gone from a nimble sports sedan to a bit of a big, comfortable autobahn cruiser. If you want an M5 with a proper manual, get an E39.
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sometimes i'm into it and my one hand gets tired, i try switching, but then it's like someone with lou gehrig's trying to peel a carrot.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:46 PM   #25
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I couldn't agree more. Between the watered down steering, engine noise played through the stereo system and 4,000 pound plus curb weight, a manual in the F10 M5 is too little too late. This car has gone from a nimble sports sedan to a bit of a big, comfortable autobahn cruiser. If you want an M5 with a proper manual, get an E39.
Youre probably right - the case for a manual in this car contradicts itself - !!
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:57 PM   #26
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I find manual a lot more fun to drive. I cant see any reason what so ever, why they wouldnt make it in manual.
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:48 PM   #27
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I find manual a lot more fun to drive. I cant see any reason what so ever, why they wouldnt make it in manual.
Agreed!

I don't care if it's ever so slightly slower than the DCT version. I like to row my own cogs. That's what provides the driving enjoyment for me.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:39 PM   #28
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I feel like the ability to drive a manual is what creates a good driver. If i was in my '91 325is and someone pulled up next to me in a new M5 with an automatic transmission I would honestly look down upon them and find them arrogant and using money to help them feel fast. Granted I'm sure anyone buying an M5 knows how to drive a car but I feel if you get rid of manual transmissions altogether you get rid of the thrill factor of knowing you nailed that shift. having a manual in a race car may actually make the racing much more competitive as it adds that one more skill to set the field apart.

My 2 cents, however I know I wont ever purchase an "enthusiasts" car or "the ultimate driving machine" without a manual transmission. takes out the thrill factor and disconnects you from the car.

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Old 11-16-2012, 09:56 PM   #29
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I feel like the ability to drive a manual is what creates a good driver. If i was in my '91 325is and someone pulled up next to me in a new M5 with an automatic transmission I would honestly look down upon them and find them arrogant and using money to help them feel fast. Granted I'm sure anyone buying an M5 knows how to drive a car but I feel if you get rid of manual transmissions altogether you get rid of the thrill factor of knowing you nailed that shift. having a manual in a race car may actually make the racing much more competitive as it adds that one more skill to set the field apart.

My 2 cents, however I know I wont ever purchase an "enthusiasts" car or "the ultimate driving machine" without a manual transmission. takes out the thrill factor and disconnects you from the car.

That's a pretty disgusting thing to say without even knowing the person. The M5 driver with an auto that didn't say anything has much more of my respect than a judging and jealous pauper driving a busted up E30.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:43 PM   #30
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That's a pretty disgusting thing to say without even knowing the person. The M5 driver with an auto that didn't say anything has much more of my respect than a judging and jealous pauper driving a busted up E30.
Disgusting? Really? Overboard much?
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:10 AM   #31
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If you like automatic, then buy automatic. If you like manual, buy manual. It at least should be available. Its all down to personal preferance.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:37 AM   #32
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Disgusting? Really? Overboard much?
I thought the word was fitting at the time.

I mean, is an E30 owner that's bad mouthing people with nicer cars than himself really a pretty sight? Also if they get that worked up about somebody else's transmission, imagine how upset (and entertaining) they might get if you say something about them.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:48 PM   #33
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i think it's interesting and also a reflection of automotive trends that the E39 M5 was available only with a manual transmission, and of the F10 M5's probably 90% sold will be automatics. what a shift (bad pun). the M5 has been transformed from stealthy sports car to a gaudy bloated drag queen.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:05 PM   #34
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^ agreed

Also iam more intrigued by the person who in this day has a well maintained e30 than someone who bought the new auto M5
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:45 AM   #35
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manual m5....dream car.....
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:34 PM   #36
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I thought the word was fitting at the time.

I mean, is an E30 owner that's bad mouthing people with nicer cars than himself really a pretty sight? Also if they get that worked up about somebody else's transmission, imagine how upset (and entertaining) they might get if you say something about them.
Nailed it, I make sure to yell out my window at them super loud so they hear me. They get so beat up over it...

I guess I view things differently than you and sorry for saying so master chief.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:55 PM   #37
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This guy is a total wusssieeee
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:43 AM   #38
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First car since the E39 ///M5 I loved and want. Manual please.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:49 AM   #39
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Manual forever ! Crappy paddle shifters ruin the experience!
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:46 AM   #40
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