E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning

Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-14-2012, 08:26 PM   #41
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 717
My Ride: 1999 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejayranger View Post
I believe I may have turned oil drain plug w/copper ring too tight, as it won't stop turning now,and it drips oil. Mechanic on auto skills center on post thinks I may have stripped threading inside oil pan. I tried to unscrew the drain plug and replace copper crush ring, but it wont pull, only to turn in place.
Just because he knows it to be a hollow bolt doesn't mean he can physically see that it is hollow right now with it installed, given that it is an unbroken bolt. He just saw it was hollow when he had it out to do that change and is confirming that yes, his bolt is hollow.

If he can attach something to the bolt to pull on it while turning it, he may get it out. Then he is faced with taping the threads and getting an oversize bolt. Some metal will get inside this way but it should be fine. If he wants to fix things completely though, the only option is to replace the pan. This is because the threads in the pan itself are stretched and/or stripped.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 11-14-2012 at 08:29 PM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:28 PM   #42
bluejayranger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: GA
Posts: 45
My Ride: '02 325i
I was going to pm Xi and he/she got banned.... What the @___@
bluejayranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:31 PM   #43
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 717
My Ride: 1999 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejayranger View Post
I was going to pm Xi and he/she got banned.... What the @___@
Not as far as I can tell, sometimes it glitches and flashes that a member is banned for a moment when retrieving their profile info.

Can you confirm for us that your drain plug is not broken and is just spinning to put this to rest. thanks
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 11-14-2012 at 08:32 PM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:32 PM   #44
bluejayranger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: GA
Posts: 45
My Ride: '02 325i
Yep, you're on the money bud.
bluejayranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:36 PM   #45
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 717
My Ride: 1999 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejayranger View Post
Yep, you're on the money bud.
Even if you can get a set of channel locks or something on it to pull down on it while you turn it, you may get it out. (I would assume your mechanic may have tried this already.)

Best bet is to weld to it and pull hard while turning it to get it to work it's way down through the damaged threads. If you are planning on doing the pan anyway though, you may as well not bother taking it out first. (Maybe drill a hole in the pan to drain it though so you don't get a face full of oil as you drop it)

Lastly, if you are going to change the pan, you may as well get good use out of this oil. I would JB weld around the plug to seal it and to stop any further leaks. Then when it's time to change the oil again, take the pan off.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 11-14-2012 at 08:52 PM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:47 PM   #46
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,472
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
Not as far as I can tell, sometimes it glitches and flashes that a member is banned for a moment when retrieving their profile info.

Can you confirm for us that your drain plug is not broken and is just spinning to put this to rest. thanks
I'm not...why would he? I was one the pouring gas on the fire.
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 05:19 AM   #47
flashmeow
Banned User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,220
My Ride: E30-E46-E90-E90M-F30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
Not as far as I can tell, sometimes it glitches and flashes that a member is banned for a moment when retrieving their profile info.

Can you confirm for us that your drain plug is not broken and is just spinning to put this to rest. thanks
1) if the bolt is just spinning then he can easily remove the bolt since this mean that either the thread is most likely stripped (unlikely) or two the bolt is fracture.

2) assuming he is using an OE BMW bolt, the force that is required to stripped the bolt or pan is much higher than the force that is require to break the bolt. Therefore, The bolt will break before it will strip.

3) do u have any personal experience with this bolt pan issue? I have. Sitting in my garage is 2 other engine that I am very tempting to do an experiment and post pictures or the results so I can put your theory to rest.

4) do u have any personal experience with tapping or drilling out fasteners? I have. Sitting in my garage is over $500 worth of time-sert and helicoil products. Therefore,I know when
it is time to drill and retap and when it is not.

5) the OP said he has no experience with cars. This is second time doing a DIY on the car. His mechanic is taking him for a ride and if he wants to shell out the money to retap or replace his engine pan than that is his choice. At this point I don't care cuz it is the op money and if he doesn't want to take advice and waste money than that is his business to make.

Seriously...how hard is it to pull out a spinning bolt (if the thread is strip). A spinning strip bolt is the EASIEST to remove when compared to other damage bolt scenarios (such a crossed.thread bolt, stuck bolt, seize bolt, etc)

After work I am going to damage one of my engine oil pan bolt just to demostrate that the fastener will break before it strip


sent from my dahc-6900 using Bimmer App

Last edited by flashmeow; 11-15-2012 at 05:23 AM.
flashmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 06:29 AM   #48
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 717
My Ride: 1999 328i
I have lots of experience in the matter flash... I work at a dealership right down the road from a jiffy lube....

It's not all that easy to remove a spinning bolt unless he knows that he has to pull on it while turning it.

Lastly, please explain how if the bolt is fractured as you say, it's still in one piece that the OP is spinning By turning the hex head and the head is not just popping off. Just because you can prove that you can break a bolt in your pan doesn't mean that the OP didn't manage to strip his threads... Maybe by continual cross threading of the bolt over time.

I don't intend for this to be a shouting match, nor do I feel the need to be "right". But people need to be aware of the differences in the situation you describe and this situation or people will start intentionally breaking off bolts in their oil pan when they have a spinning bolt only to find its now harder to remove the bolt from the stripped threads than it was before.

One of the most dangerous mistakes I see mechanics make all the time is assuming they know what a problem is because they have seen something that looks very similar before. They don't follow the necessary steps or follow logic to get to the correct conclusion rather they jump over all of that to the conclusion. (In other words, jumping to conclusions) It's this type of diagnosis that makes mechanics and shops look bad when the customer has to return time and time again for the same problem.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 11-15-2012 at 06:32 AM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 07:33 AM   #49
flashmeow
Banned User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,220
My Ride: E30-E46-E90-E90M-F30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
I have lots of experience in the matter flash... I work at a dealership right down the road from a jiffy lube....

It's not all that easy to remove a spinning bolt unless he knows that he has to pull on it while turning it.

Lastly, please explain how if the bolt is fractured as you say, it's still in one piece that the OP is spinning By turning the hex head and the head is not just popping off. Just because you can prove that you can break a bolt in your pan doesn't mean that the OP didn't manage to strip his threads... Maybe by continual cross threading of the bolt over time.

I don't intend for this to be a shouting match, nor do I feel the need to be "right". But people need to be aware of the differences in the situation you describe and this situation or people will start intentionally breaking off bolts in their oil pan when they have a spinning bolt only to find its now harder to remove the bolt from the stripped threads than it was before.

One of the most dangerous mistakes I see mechanics make all the time is assuming they know what a problem is because they have seen something that looks very similar before. They don't follow the necessary steps or follow logic to get to the correct conclusion rather they jump over all of that to the conclusion. (In other words, jumping to conclusions) It's this type of diagnosis that makes mechanics and shops look bad when the customer has to return time and time again for the same problem.
1) Although I don't doubt your experience working on cars at the dealership or at Jiffy Lube, it is obvious that you don't have any experience with the drain plug on the M54/M52TU.

2) Other engines from other make and model doesn't have a hollow design drain plug. Therefore, if you stripped or break a solid oil drain plug then you are SOL. Your experience are all based on SOLID DRAIN PLUG. The M54 and newer BMW engine all has hollow drain plug for this same exact reason.

3) Let me give you a history on the bmw drain plug. On the E30 and early E36 model, the drain plug was solid. when people break or stripped them then the repair is lengthy and costly. BMW engineers decided to update their drain plug design to the hollow one because they would rather have a drain plug snapped/break then for it to stripped the thread. The hollow drain plug serves two purposes: 1) Prevent thread stripping and 2) Make it easier to remove the broken bolt without any extractor tool

After the OP spends his money on retapping the hole or buying/installing a new oil drain plug then I am going to demostrate how it is VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO STRIP a OE hollow drain plug.

I can't wait to start this demostration.



I have a chest full of torque wrenches and time-sert tool. Maybe I know a thing about tapping and torquing fastner.

In this pix you can see that I have 5x torque wrenches, 2 micro torque tools and 4x Time Insert tool. Next to the "E46fanatics" paper, I also have 3x extra drain plugs.

Here is the engine that I am going to use to demostrate how the oil drain plug is going to break/fracture before the thread can get damage


Last edited by flashmeow; 11-15-2012 at 07:37 AM.
flashmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 07:54 AM   #50
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 717
My Ride: 1999 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashtwosix View Post
1) Although I don't doubt your experience working on cars at the dealership or at Jiffy Lube, it is obvious that you don't have any experience with the drain plug on the M54/M52TU.
It's clear to me your not fully reading peoples posts. I don't, and have never, worked at Jiffy Lube. It was meant to be a funny aside about the number of cars I see with stripped plugs that come into our dealership from the Jiffy Lube down the street.

Furthermore, I am very familiar with engineered bolts that are designed to break at certain torque thresholds. The problem here is that his hollow bolt is not broken as the head is still on it. Please tell me you understand that if the threads are stripped, breaking the head off of the bolt will do nothing to help remove it. I have a garage full of tools and engines too. Further, my day job is the auto service industry. This isn't a case of who has more stuff or who knows about what. This is a case of not reading all the facts and coming to a logical conclusion.

Your just completely missing major facts in what the OP has stated his problem is.

Please take a video of you breaking the bolt and then the head remaining attached to the bolt and just spinning. If you can do this, I will completely believe you. Just because you can break a bolt before the threads stripped on your engine, doesn't mean that his bolts hasn't been cross threaded over time and completely chewed up the threads.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 11-15-2012 at 08:04 AM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 08:05 AM   #51
flashmeow
Banned User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,220
My Ride: E30-E46-E90-E90M-F30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
It's clear to me your not fully reading peoples posts. I don't, and have never, worked at Jiffy Lube. It was meant to be a funny aside about the number of cars I see with stripped plugs that come into our dealership from the Jiffy Lube down the street.

Furthermore, I am very familiar with engineered bolts that are designed to break at certain torque thresholds. The problem here is that his hollow bolt is not broken as the head is still on it. Please tell me you understand that if the threads are stripped, breaking the head off of the bolt will do nothing to help remove it. I have a garage full of tools and engines too. Further, my day job is the auto service industry. This isn't a case of who has more stuff or who knows about what. This is a case of not reading all the facts and coming to a logical conclusion.

Your just completely missing major facts in what the OP has stated his problem is.
The op is stating his problem based on his limited mechancal understanding of things (his own admission). He is basing everything on what his mechanic is telling him.

If I was his mechanic or a shaddy one o would tell him that his thread is stripped and that he needs to pay me lots $$$$$$ to retap it or to replace the oil pan. I will charge him $200 to $800. I will quote him 2rs to 8hrs for the job when in actuality all I have to do is remove the broken bolt with an oversized Allen key which will take less than 5 mins

Plenty of people had their mechanics ripped them off over this same exact issue.

sent from my dahc-6900 using Bimmer App
flashmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 08:08 AM   #52
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 717
My Ride: 1999 328i
The OP stated he drove the car to a mechanic to have them try and remove the bolt. (You can't drive a car that is completely drained of oil) As it would be if it had all drained out through a broken hollow bolt. He also mentioned the fact that he wanted to remove the bolt to try replacing the copper washer. If the head had broken off, the copper washer would have come with it.

Further, the OP has stated that yes, he is spinning the hex head of the bolt with a wrench. In other words, the hex head is still there.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 11-15-2012 at 08:09 AM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 08:13 AM   #53
flashmeow
Banned User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,220
My Ride: E30-E46-E90-E90M-F30
To answer your question about his bolt....
Because the bolt is spinning endlessly, this is an indication that his hollow bolt is broken. All he has to do is remove the head. The head is only held on to the engine pan by a few threads (depending on where the fracture is).

In my experience, the bolt will be broken anywhere from a few mm from the head to half way down the length of the bolt.

So in summary...he removes the portion of his bolt that is spinning endlessly. This happens to be the head portion.

Oil will then drain out since it the other portion is hollow. Wait until all the oil is drained and pull out the other portion of the bolt that is still inside the oil drain hole.

Since the other end is hollow, removing it is very simple. No need to drill since it is not solid. Just hammer in an oversized Allen key and twist/turn.

sent from my dahc-6900 using Bimmer App
flashmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 09:04 AM   #54
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 717
My Ride: 1999 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashtwosix View Post
To answer your question about his bolt....
Because the bolt is spinning endlessly, this is an indication that his hollow bolt is broken. All he has to do is remove the head. The head is only held on to the engine pan by a few threads (depending on where the fracture is).

In my experience, the bolt will be broken anywhere from a few mm from the head to half way down the length of the bolt.

So in summary...he removes the portion of his bolt that is spinning endlessly. This happens to be the head portion.

Oil will then drain out since it the other portion is hollow. Wait until all the oil is drained and pull out the other portion of the bolt that is still inside the oil drain hole.

Since the other end is hollow, removing it is very simple. No need to drill since it is not solid. Just hammer in an oversized Allen key and twist/turn.

sent from my dahc-6900 using Bimmer App
If the threads were in-fact not stripped, and if he was turning the head which was held in by a few threads in a counter clockwise direction, as one would do if trying to remove the bolt, the broken head would turn out of those few remaining threads and you would be left with the scenario that you describe.
This has not happened for the OP. The head is just spinning endlessly in a counter clockwise direction.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 11-15-2012 at 09:07 AM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 09:30 AM   #55
flashmeow
Banned User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,220
My Ride: E30-E46-E90-E90M-F30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
If the threads were in-fact not stripped, and if he was turning the head which was held in by a few threads in a counter clockwise direction, as one would do if trying to remove the bolt, the broken head would turn out of those few remaining threads and you would be left with the scenario that you describe.
This has not happened for the OP. The head is just spinning endlessly in a counter clockwise direction.
I am sorry if my tone of voice is a little abrasive. I don't know why we r even arguing. Lol.

At this point, regardless of the failure the OP is going to have to shell out a lot of money.

I am not saying all mechanics are shaddy but most will charge an arm and a leg just to remove the bolt, retap the thread or install a new engine pan.

I was quoted $350 to replace my e30 engine oil pan (crack pan) just for the labor. I ended buying the oil, gasket and new pan oil pan for the same price and did it over the weekend

Not all mechanics are shaddy but

sent from my dahc-6900 using Bimmer App
flashmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 09:41 AM   #56
jared_wiesner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 717
My Ride: 1999 328i
I'm not arguing out of any sort of personal vendetta or anger. I simply feel that the great solution you have for a broken bolt is probably not going to help in the OP's situation. I just don't want incorrect information spread around.

I don't think anyone will argue with you that doing a job yourself will save you a ton of money over paying a shop to do it. But if the job took you all weekend, then 350 in labour is not all that bad. With labour rates at most shops reaching close to 100 per hour, thats only 3.5 hours. For those of us that can do the work ourselves, it's always a question of how much our time is worth to us. For those who can't, going to a mechanic is the only option and not always overpriced, simply more money. The vast majority of the public has no desire to wrench on their cars. It's simply supply and demand, and trust me, its not cheap to run a shop anymore. Most of the labour rate is going just to pay for the building and utilities, not to mention vehicle specific scan tools/software and everything else you need to work on modern vehicles. Add in a customer that expects complimentary satellite TV, coffee and donuts, and shuttle service and it gets very expensive just to open your doors for the day.
__________________

Last edited by jared_wiesner; 11-15-2012 at 11:13 AM.
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 12:50 PM   #57
bluejayranger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: GA
Posts: 45
My Ride: '02 325i
Hey guys, bottom line
My plan is to keep her for a long time as a daily, so I've decided to go with replacing a oil pan route w/ a used oil pan.

Question: In addition to the oil pan and new oil pan gasket, do I need a new oil sensor? Or if the old or is good, can it be just plug-N-play?
bluejayranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 02:09 PM   #58
Trashcan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 668
My Ride: 2002 330ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejayranger View Post
Hey guys, bottom line
My plan is to keep her for a long time as a daily, so I've decided to go with replacing a oil pan route w/ a used oil pan.

Question: In addition to the oil pan and new oil pan gasket, do I need a new oil sensor? Or if the old or is good, can it be just plug-N-play?
If your old one worked before, it'll be fine in a new pan. I think it's 2 torx screws that hold it in. Plug and play, super simple.

Do you need a pan? I have an extra.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
Trashcan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 02:11 PM   #59
Trashcan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 668
My Ride: 2002 330ci
But understand, if you're swapping the oil pan yourself, it's not a quick, simple job. And if you drive an xi, it's only more of a Dick around.

Best of luck!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
Trashcan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 02:27 PM   #60
bluejayranger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: GA
Posts: 45
My Ride: '02 325i
Check, I got a quote for approx 200-240 for the entire job, what do you think? (On base, Army operated shop)
bluejayranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is OFF





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use