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Old 11-19-2012, 06:14 AM   #61
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We have done some of that. Jason reported that taking off the HPF intake and replacing it with a 4" setup netted him over 50 hp!
Would that have more to do with exceeding 125m/sec with a 3" inlet pipe, than the manifold/plenum itself?

Obviously running large pre-manifold pipe will affect transient response...so it's a trade off with response versus peak power.


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We have both measured ex back pressure at the turbo. It is not all that ridiculously high actually but that does not tell us the entire story in a log manifold as because the turbo sits near the rear and the first 5 runners all merge together, there may be high BP at the front cylinders.
Really good point, and pretty hard to measure without high speed sensors that would catch the dynamic response. I've looked into this from a response perspective, and the only sensors fast enough to measure this cost $1100-$1300 each depending on the range. Then you have to be able sample higher than Nyquist frequency...which is well above what most motorsport data loggers are capable off. Basically...you're into lab-grade equipment to watch this properly in real-time.....

Total cost including the logger, analysis software, and sensors would be about $11-12k. Pretty hard to build that cost into a manifold design unless you are selling a lot of them. (Or it's for a Motorsport project) Maybe FSR could comment on this?
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:14 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
Would that have more to do with exceeding 125m/sec with a 3" inlet pipe, than the manifold/plenum itself?

Obviously running large pre-manifold pipe will affect transient response...so it's a trade off with response versus peak power.
Please excuse the layman question: What is special about the 125 m/s intake speed?

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Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
Really good point, and pretty hard to measure without high speed sensors that would catch the dynamic response. I've looked into this from a response perspective, and the only sensors fast enough to measure this cost $1100-$1300 each depending on the range. Then you have to be able sample higher than Nyquist frequency...which is well above what most motorsport data loggers are capable off. Basically...you're into lab-grade equipment to watch this properly in real-time.....

Total cost including the logger, analysis software, and sensors would be about $11-12k. Pretty hard to build that cost into a manifold design unless you are selling a lot of them. (Or it's for a Motorsport project) Maybe FSR could comment on this?
By this stage our test setup should be on an engine dyno.

I presume that the higher (or lower) than Nyquest frequency would result in a type of "multi-scan" type sensor strategy taking samples at discernible crank angles that would later be compiled into a high resolution chart based on several crank turns worth of samples?

The presumption, of course, is that the engine operation is constant during the crank turns whose samples are utilized and that can only realistically be approximated with an engine dyno.

IF that is true, then the actual cost of obtaining equipment for these types of measurements could likely be significantly higher. What about subcontracting to a firm that already has the lab and sensors? Does FSR have access to such a lab?

Last edited by FragNasty; 11-19-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:56 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FragNasty View Post
Please excuse the layman question: What is special about the 125 m/s intake speed?



By this stage our test setup should be on an engine dyno.

I presume that the higher (or lower) than Nyquest frequency would result in a type of "multi-scan" type sensor strategy taking samples at discernible crank angles that would later be compiled into a high resolution chart based on several crank turns worth of samples?

The presumption, of course, is that the engine operation is constant during the crank turns whose samples are utilized and that can only realistically be approximated with an engine dyno.

IF that is true, then the actual cost of obtaining equipment for these types of measurements could likely be significantly higher. What about subcontracting to a firm that already has the lab and sensors? Does FSR have access to such a lab?
I have an engine dyno no sensors of those types thou.

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:55 PM   #64
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Please excuse the layman question: What is special about the 125 m/s intake speed?
It's the approximate velocity where you start to see flow resistance increase exponentially when compared to mass flow; commonly known as the choke point.


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Originally Posted by FragNasty View Post
By this stage our test setup should be on an engine dyno.

I presume that the higher (or lower) than Nyquest frequency would result in a type of "multi-scan" type sensor strategy taking samples at discernible crank angles that would later be compiled into a high resolution chart based on several crank turns worth of samples?

The presumption, of course, is that the engine operation is constant during the crank turns whose samples are utilized and that can only realistically be approximated with an engine dyno.

IF that is true, then the actual cost of obtaining equipment for these types of measurements could likely be significantly higher. What about subcontracting to a firm that already has the lab and sensors? Does FSR have access to such a lab?
No...$12k would do it, and you could use a chassis dyno...but it makes it a lot easier to experiment with different parts on an engine dyno. That is unless you had your hands on 4stHEAD.....

Last edited by PEI330Ci; 11-19-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:47 PM   #65
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Can you tell us more about this turbo kit? Does it need an oil scavenge pump?
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:10 PM   #66
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The guys are doing lots of testing with a variety of sensors and logging using some very fast pickups. We aren't just going to throw parts, boost, or nitrous at it to make a number.

The base kit is getting close to being ready. We'll show our oil system once we know it is 100%.

We're putting our heads together with SP and you can count on great results!

Thanks for all of the interest!
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:24 PM   #67
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:14 PM   #68
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It's the approximate velocity where you start to see flow resistance increase exponentially when compared to mass flow; commonly known as the choke point.

No...$12k would do it, and you could use a chassis dyno...but it makes it a lot easier to experiment with different parts on an engine dyno. That is unless you had your hands on 4stHEAD.....
Interesting.



Thanks for your valuable insight!
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:05 PM   #69
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Has this system become true plug and play now? So that an average+ wrench turner can hook it up?
A system with this many capabilities will never be completely plug and play.



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Old 01-08-2013, 01:02 PM   #70
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Bump for update!
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:03 PM   #71
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Oh wow, welcome! I'm looking into Cobb so great to know you Protune. Can you tell me what mods that 335 has?
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:47 PM   #72
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I stopped by FSR yesterday. I'm not allowed to say anything.. but I will say this... if you like stealth and clean installs.. I've never seen one as clean as FSR's to date.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:57 PM   #73
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I stopped by FSR yesterday. I'm not allowed to say anything.. but I will say this... if you like stealth and clean installs.. I've never seen one as clean as FSR's to date.
Great to hear! I'll be going for a visit end of Feb
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:19 PM   #74
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Great to hear! I'll be going for a visit end of Feb
Take me with you!!!
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:29 PM   #75
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Take me with you!!!
Book the tickets ...then we can go to Disneyland!
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:29 PM   #76
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:32 PM   #77
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Book the tickets ...then we can go to Disneyland!
lol, you getting new engine management?
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:11 PM   #78
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lol, you getting new engine management?
We'll have to see Doubtful as I pretty much don't want to deal with ProEFI stuff as I have yet to see it at the level I want it...FSR however seems like they have their **** together. I'm holding out for the Infinity...I hope it's everything I want and more but I'll still hold my candle in the dark...waiting.
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:01 PM   #79
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bump!
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