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Old 11-15-2012, 11:04 AM   #101
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Took a week off the gym, and rested a lot ... didn't eat the greatest but I haven't noticed any fat gain.

I've decided I am going to cut to around 11-12%... a range I figure where I will have lost majority of fat around my upper abs, and not have a little fat "pouch" anymore on stomach. I'm hoping this takes me 10 weeks or less.

I'm very aware of the fact I need to bulk, but I have this constant mental hinderance that I am getting fat, and I need to have a "setpoint" where I can tell when the fat starts adding up to too much. I'm in this for the longhaul, so I feel a 10-12 week cut won't set me back much. See how it goes, I'm going to be tracking calories and sticking to the intermittent fasting regime. Doing reverse pyramid training (squats/deads/bench) and bodyweight exercises 3x a week.

In other news, my bench plateau seems to be gone after a week long rest... I did 4 warmup sets yesterday, and then got 8 solid reps of 160 lbs... Most I could do before was struggling to get 5. New PR 1rm for 200 lbs.

Taking pics every two weeks btw, I'll collage them together. Interested to see what happens
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:27 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by dabears View Post
Took a week off the gym, and rested a lot ... didn't eat the greatest but I haven't noticed any fat gain.

I've decided I am going to cut to around 11-12%... a range I figure where I will have lost majority of fat around my upper abs, and not have a little fat "pouch" anymore on stomach. I'm hoping this takes me 10 weeks or less.

I'm very aware of the fact I need to bulk, but I have this constant mental hinderance that I am getting fat, and I need to have a "setpoint" where I can tell when the fat starts adding up to too much. I'm in this for the longhaul, so I feel a 10-12 week cut won't set me back much. See how it goes, I'm going to be tracking calories and sticking to the intermittent fasting regime. Doing reverse pyramid training (squats/deads/bench) and bodyweight exercises 3x a week.

In other news, my bench plateau seems to be gone after a week long rest... I did 4 warmup sets yesterday, and then got 8 solid reps of 160 lbs... Most I could do before was struggling to get 5. New PR 1rm for 200 lbs.

Taking pics every two weeks btw, I'll collage them together. Interested to see what happens
Congrats on breaking that plateau man!
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:01 PM   #103
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Thanks, I still think 1RM calculations are good for measuring progress, but not realistic... I'm pretty sure there is no chance I could do a rep of 200 lbs lol

Maybe I'll be able to be like you and have "hard and soft" ab days soon

edit: no **** on "hard and soft" lol
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:26 PM   #104
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Thanks, I still think 1RM calculations are good for measuring progress, but not realistic... I'm pretty sure there is no chance I could do a rep of 200 lbs lol

Maybe I'll be able to be like you and have "hard and soft" ab days soon

edit: no **** on "hard and soft" lol

(__)__IIIIIIIIIIIID

^^^Hard!


(__)_ID

^^^Soft!




In all seriousness, I tend to measure my gains via a mixture of my 1RM capability AND my rep capability.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:28 PM   #105
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^ a grower, not a shower eh?
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:16 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by M3Inline6 View Post
(__)__IIIIIIIIIIIID

^^^Hard!


(__)_ID

^^^Soft!




In all seriousness, I tend to measure my gains via a mixture of my 1RM capability AND my rep capability.
my longer rep maxes suck lol. I need to work on that.

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^ a grower, not a shower eh?
he's a black guy...so he's both.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:09 PM   #107
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Took last night and this morning to re-evaluate my goals, reflected over the past 2.5 years of my training habits and I realized I'm doing exactly what caused me to stall in the past.

Glight made an interesting comment, how it sounded like I was "fat" in the past. I've never been fat, but I did get chubby when bulking and I think that mentally handicapped me bulking wise, despite the knowledge I have. I wasn't consistent with my workouts during that time, and I was eating the worst kinds of foods... that's more to blame than the excess calories.

As much as I wanted to cut down to a 6 pack (never had one) I realize I will probably still look slightly skinny fat.

Anyways, when people much more experienced than you at something give you advice (bulk don't cut)... you should take it. That's exactly what I'm going to do, and not worry about the scale or the mirror while I do it. There will be a time to cut down, and its definitely not now

I'll be adding conditioning into my program on the weekends, I'll try and copy some of the things guys on here are doing and see how I fare.

Thanks again for the help
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:20 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by dabears View Post
Took last night and this morning to re-evaluate my goals, reflected over the past 2.5 years of my training habits and I realized I'm doing exactly what caused me to stall in the past.

Glight made an interesting comment, how it sounded like I was "fat" in the past. I've never been fat, but I did get chubby when bulking and I think that mentally handicapped me bulking wise, despite the knowledge I have. I wasn't consistent with my workouts during that time, and I was eating the worst kinds of foods... that's more to blame than the excess calories.

As much as I wanted to cut down to a 6 pack (never had one) I realize I will probably still look slightly skinny fat.

Anyways, when people much more experienced than you at something give you advice (bulk don't cut)... you should take it. That's exactly what I'm going to do, and not worry about the scale or the mirror while I do it. There will be a time to cut down, and its definitely not now

I'll be adding conditioning into my program on the weekends, I'll try and copy some of the things guys on here are doing and see how I fare.

Thanks again for the help

The first step to change is admitting/realizing that you need it/to.

Also keep in mind that the more muscle that you put on, the more calories/fat your body will burn on a daily basis when at rest, and it will be easier to cut when the time comes. You might even find that your fat percentage decreases WHILE you're bulking (..which isn't meant to suggest that you can necessarily cut while bulking, just that your fat percentage may decrease). I'm not cutting AT ALL, and my waist is getting smaller.

Last edited by M3Inline6; 11-27-2012 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:50 PM   #109
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The first step to change is admitting/realizing that you need it/to.

Also keep in mind that the more muscle that you put on, the more fat your body will burn on a daily basis and it will be easier to cut. You might even find that your fat percentage decreases WHILE you're bulking (..which isn't meant to suggest that you can necessarily cut while bulking, just that your fat percentage may decrease). I'm not cutting AT ALL, and my waist is getting smaller.
I definitely agree, and thanks for the motivation. I'm nowhere near where I thought I would be when I started working out... which really sucks.

Less goal making novels, and just muscle gain progress reports now. Phew
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:53 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by dabears View Post
Took last night and this morning to re-evaluate my goals, reflected over the past 2.5 years of my training habits and I realized I'm doing exactly what caused me to stall in the past.

Glight made an interesting comment, how it sounded like I was "fat" in the past. I've never been fat, but I did get chubby when bulking and I think that mentally handicapped me bulking wise, despite the knowledge I have. I wasn't consistent with my workouts during that time, and I was eating the worst kinds of foods... that's more to blame than the excess calories.

As much as I wanted to cut down to a 6 pack (never had one) I realize I will probably still look slightly skinny fat.

Anyways, when people much more experienced than you at something give you advice (bulk don't cut)... you should take it. That's exactly what I'm going to do, and not worry about the scale or the mirror while I do it. There will be a time to cut down, and its definitely not now

I'll be adding conditioning into my program on the weekends, I'll try and copy some of the things guys on here are doing and see how I fare.

Thanks again for the help
Good job. I was the same way man. I cut last summer and got skinny. Everyone made comments about how thin I got and it bothered me. I then said fuuck that and started lifting heavy and eating a lot more. Now people tell me I look pretty good, fit, more full etc. I think with conditioning thrown in and clean high cal foods you'll be fine. I made the mistake of bulking with a lot of breads and pastas in the past.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:53 PM   #111
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^ a grower, not a shower eh?
Studies have shown there is little to no correlation between soft and hard penis's.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:59 PM   #112
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Good job. I was the same way man. I cut last summer and got skinny. Everyone made comments about how thin I got and it bothered me. I then said fuuck that and started lifting heavy and eating a lot more. Now people tell me I look pretty good, fit, more full etc. I think with conditioning thrown in and clean high cal foods you'll be fine. I made the mistake of bulking with a lot of breads and pastas in the past.
Thanks, yeah I've been there before too with the thin comments. Hated it, my shoulders shrank immensely.

I've completely cut bread out of my diet since July, and for the most part pasta... but I may use it as a bulking tool. On training days I need something crazy like 480g of carbs... and I'm really not sure I can get it from rice and potatoes alone. I'm going to see if I can at first, but I think I could live with some whole wheat pasta once or twice a week, its incredibly dense with carbs.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:37 PM   #113
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Need help trimming the "fat" from this workout I'm starting monday to co-incide with me changing goals. Theres a ton here, and if you see anything that just seems like its beating a dead horse, let me know please. 4 sets Wide grip pulldowns for instance after deadlifts/pullups/barbell rows seems excessive. I'd love my workout to be as efficient as possible, yet tailored towards aesthetics first, strength second (flame on)

Thanks in advance!

Monday - Shoulders / Triceps : 24 Sets = 51 Minutes

Shoulders : 15 Sets = 37.5 Minutes
DB Press - 4x6 : 120 rest
Military Press - 4x6 : 120 rest
Side Laterals - 3x8 : 120 rest
Rear delts cables - 4x6 : 120 rest
Triceps : 9 Sets = 13.5 Minutes
Skulls - 3x8 : 60 rest
Press Downs - 3x8 : 60 rest
French Curls - 3x8 : 60 rest

Tuesday - Back / Calves : 26 Sets = 60 Minutes

Back : 19 Sets = 49 Minutes
Deadlifts - 3x8 Reps : 180 rest
Pull Ups - 4x7 Reps : 120 rest
Bent over rows - 4x8 Reps : 120 rest
Wide Lat Pull Downs - 4x6 Reps : 120 rest
Seat rows - 4x8 Reps : 120 rest
Calves : 7 Sets = 11 Minutes
Leg Press Calves - 4x10 : 60 rest
Seated 21s - 3x21 : 60 rest

Thursday - Chest / Biceps : 25 Sets = 53.5 Minutes

Chest : 16 Sets = 40 Minutes
Incline DB Press - 4x8 : 120 rest
Flat Bench Press - 4x8 : 120 rest
Pec Dec - 4x8 : 120 rest
Low Cables - 4x8 : 120 rest
Biceps : 9 Sets = 13.5 Minutes
Preacher Curls - 3x8 : 60 rest
Incline DB Curls - 3x8 : 60 rest
Concentration curls - 3x8 : 60 rest

Friday - Quads / Hamstrings : 28 Sets = One Hour 12 Minutes

Quads : 16 Sets = 42.5 Minutes
Squats - 5x12,10,6,6,8 : 180 rest
Leg Press - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest
Lunges - 3x8 : 120 rest
Extensions - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest
Hamstrings : 12 Sets = 30 Minutes
Straight Leg Deads - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest
Seated Hams - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest
Lying Hams - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:46 PM   #114
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My first question is why is everything so high rep. No 3s, no 5s?

I feel like higher rep stuff is just. Lot of wasted reps. If you can lift it 10 times and then do it again 2 minutes later you're not accomplishing a whole lot with the sets.

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Old 11-29-2012, 06:10 PM   #115
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My first question is why is everything so high rep. No 3s, no 5s?

I feel like higher rep stuff is just. Lot of wasted reps. If you can lift it 10 times and then do it again 2 minutes later you're not accomplishing a whole lot with the sets.

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Well I'm looking to build as much muscle mass as possible, and from my understanding the rep ranges of 3-6 are more strength hypertrophy, while 8-12 are more muscle volume based hypertrophy. Obviously you'd see mass gains from strength rep ranges and strength gains for volume rep ranges, just each range prioritizes what gets developed. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Good questions for sure...

I know what has worked best in the past for me is pyramid training (for example 10-8-6), which takes away the 10-10-10 for instance... I can pick a weight that I can get 10 on the first set, but as I am fatigued when I go for the same weight on next set, I can only get 8... or if I feel I can still get 10 I go up in weight. Should I change the rep scheme to a more pyramid based one?
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:43 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by dabears View Post
Need help trimming the "fat" from this workout I'm starting monday to co-incide with me changing goals. Theres a ton here, and if you see anything that just seems like its beating a dead horse, let me know please. 4 sets Wide grip pulldowns for instance after deadlifts/pullups/barbell rows seems excessive. I'd love my workout to be as efficient as possible, yet tailored towards aesthetics first, strength second (flame on)

Thanks in advance!

Monday - Shoulders / Triceps : 24 Sets = 51 Minutes

Shoulders : 15 Sets = 37.5 Minutes
DB Press - 4x6 : 120 rest
Military Press - 4x6 : 120 rest
Side Laterals - 3x8 : 120 rest
Rear delts cables - 4x6 : 120 rest
Triceps : 9 Sets = 13.5 Minutes
Skulls - 3x8 : 60 rest
Press Downs - 3x8 : 60 rest
French Curls - 3x8 : 60 rest

Tuesday - Back / Calves : 26 Sets = 60 Minutes

Back : 19 Sets = 49 Minutes
Deadlifts - 3x8 Reps : 180 rest
Pull Ups - 4x7 Reps : 120 rest
Bent over rows - 4x8 Reps : 120 rest
Wide Lat Pull Downs - 4x6 Reps : 120 rest
Seat rows - 4x8 Reps : 120 rest
Calves : 7 Sets = 11 Minutes
Leg Press Calves - 4x10 : 60 rest
Seated 21s - 3x21 : 60 rest

Thursday - Chest / Biceps : 25 Sets = 53.5 Minutes

Chest : 16 Sets = 40 Minutes
Incline DB Press - 4x8 : 120 rest
Flat Bench Press - 4x8 : 120 rest
Pec Dec - 4x8 : 120 rest
Low Cables - 4x8 : 120 rest
Biceps : 9 Sets = 13.5 Minutes
Preacher Curls - 3x8 : 60 rest
Incline DB Curls - 3x8 : 60 rest
Concentration curls - 3x8 : 60 rest

Friday - Quads / Hamstrings : 28 Sets = One Hour 12 Minutes

Quads : 16 Sets = 42.5 Minutes
Squats - 5x12,10,6,6,8 : 180 rest
Leg Press - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest
Lunges - 3x8 : 120 rest
Extensions - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest
Hamstrings : 12 Sets = 30 Minutes
Straight Leg Deads - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest
Seated Hams - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest
Lying Hams - 4x10,8,6,10 : 120 rest

This is my advice an aesthetics approach, NOT a strength approach (..although you will obviously get stronger), and this is only one scheme to consider...


For the shoulder day, I'd work heavy Military Press, moderate weight/rep schemes for lateral raises and DB Presses (...occasionally mixing it up with Arnold Presses instead), and light/moderate weight for the rear delt cable flies (..12-15 rep scheme). I'd also alternate/replace the DB and/or Arnold Presses with upright rows or front delt raises. Depending on how you pull, you can also lump pull-downs into your shoulder day. Your tricep work looks okay.

Any particular reason why you're lumping calves into your back day instead of working them on your leg day?

For your back day, I'd do moderate weight/moderate rep scheme DL's to increase the time under tension, moderate weight/moderate rep bent-over rows, and alternate the type of cable rows (..vary the handles). Do not forget to toss in the DB rows. They are AWESOME for aesthetics. On your cable exercises (..or any exercise for that matter), I cannot emphasize enough..........pay close attention to the contractions. Cables are great for aesthetics! Add your bicep work on your back days. It makes the most sense.

For your chest day, it looks pretty good, but go heavy on your bench presses and higher reps on your cables (..again, focused on the eccentric/concentric; I keep repeating this because it is SO IMPORTANT). Alternate between free weight and Smith machine incline bench presses as well (..you'll understand why when you improve your mind/muscle connection). Add some additional tricep work on your chest days. Maybe choose to do cable tricep work on chest days and dumbbell/barbell tricep work on your shoulder days.

On leg day, go balls out on squats. I repeat, go balls out on squats. Moderate/low weight rep scheme on the leg extensions, and alternate between lunges and the leg press. I would also add moderate weight RDL's with a barbell or dumbbells. Do calves on leg day, and I'd recommend the Smith machine.

Last edited by M3Inline6; 11-29-2012 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:49 PM   #117
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Well I'm looking to build as much muscle mass as possible, and from my understanding the rep ranges of 3-6 are more strength hypertrophy, while 8-12 are more muscle volume based hypertrophy. Obviously you'd see mass gains from strength rep ranges and strength gains for volume rep ranges, just each range prioritizes what gets developed. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Good questions for sure...

I know what has worked best in the past for me is pyramid training (for example 10-8-6), which takes away the 10-10-10 for instance... I can pick a weight that I can get 10 on the first set, but as I am fatigued when I go for the same weight on next set, I can only get 8... or if I feel I can still get 10 I go up in weight. Should I change the rep scheme to a more pyramid based one?
My personal opinion is that those rules apply mainly to advanced trainees moreso than beginners. A solid compound linear progression will put more mass on a novice trainee than anything else, in my opinion.

I think you're short changing yourself with reverse pyramid training. It's just a lot of wasted reps in my opinion. I'd personally rather see a heavy 5x5 or 5x3 with more rest than all these higher rep sets with a bunch of reps at lower weights.

Gotta remember that a lot of these programs are written by people that are very advanced yet they write stuff on their website and everyone that reads it assumes that was the single program that got those people to the place they are currently at when in reality they used all sorts of beginner, intermediate and advanced programs to get them there.

Your goal at this point should be to add mass and add strength so you can get to a point much more quickly where an appearance based program will benefit you much more so than it will now.

All just in my opinion of course and if appearance is your main goal you could modify a linear progression program from a weekly cycle to a 10 day cycle so you have a few extra days for arm days or back days and an extra day of cardio.

Hope this helps.



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Old 11-29-2012, 08:59 PM   #118
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No offense to anyone or their suggestions, but this seems like entirely too much faith in "programs." Seems like a bunch of trainers trying to make names for themselves.

I have yet to see anyone who wasn't predisposed to greatness get what I would consider to be an extraordinary aesthetic results from a "program."

Why not just try a standard 5-day split like so many of us used successfully?
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:21 PM   #119
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Your goal at this point should be to add mass and add strength so you can get to a point much more quickly where an appearance based program will benefit you much more so than it will now.

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I echo this very simple suggestion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dwass325 View Post
No offense to anyone or their suggestions, but this seems like entirely too much faith in "programs." Seems like a bunch of trainers trying to make names for themselves.

I have yet to see anyone who wasn't predisposed to greatness get what I would consider to be an extraordinary aesthetic results from a "program."

Why not just try a standard 5-day split like so many of us used successfully?

I agree, but I attribute that to a new - or relatively new - lifter's lack of experience. I've been lifting a long time, and I've never heard of most of the websites/trainers that people mention in these threads. When I was a newbie, I looked around in the gym, spotted the dude that "looked" the best and/or who lifted serious weight and asked the pertinent questions. There was a lot of trial & error as well, but that's with anything. I was also never afraid to ask somebody for help.

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Old 11-29-2012, 10:40 PM   #120
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I think you're short changing yourself with reverse pyramid training. It's just a lot of wasted reps in my opinion. I'd personally rather see a heavy 5x5 or 5x3 with more rest than all these higher rep sets with a bunch of reps at lower weights.
I'd like to do this for the compound big 3, but I also have seen great results in the past from the 8-10 rep range for non compound (supplementary) exercises (incline dumbbell bench for instance). I know its nothing impressive, but I do have a good 2 years of working out and my current strength levels are around the intermediate level, so I think I'm past my "newbie gains" stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glight View Post
Gotta remember that a lot of these programs are written by people that are very advanced yet they write stuff on their website and everyone that reads it assumes that was the single program that got those people to the place they are currently at when in reality they used all sorts of beginner, intermediate and advanced programs to get them there.
This one was actually created for me by a previous trainer I had, but he could have done the exact thing you are saying (He was huge, so what worked for him may not work for me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glight View Post
Your goal at this point should be to add mass and add strength so you can get to a point much more quickly where an appearance based program will benefit you much more so than it will now.
Realistically I think I'll see positive gains from doing a 5x5 or 5x3 or a 3x8 etc... the sweet spot seems to be 25-30 total reps per exercise. I personally think the compound lifts done heavy are great, as they tax the CNS and really thrash your body. I did stronglifts this summer for two months, and definitely saw a strength increase despite probably not eating enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glight View Post
All just in my opinion of course and if appearance is your main goal you could modify a linear progression program from a weekly cycle to a 10 day cycle so you have a few extra days for arm days or back days and an extra day of cardio.

Hope this helps.
Very much so, thanks a lot!

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Originally Posted by dwass325 View Post
No offense to anyone or their suggestions, but this seems like entirely too much faith in "programs." Seems like a bunch of trainers trying to make names for themselves.

I have yet to see anyone who wasn't predisposed to greatness get what I would consider to be an extraordinary aesthetic results from a "program."

Why not just try a standard 5-day split like so many of us used successfully?
With my lifestyle a 5 day split just doesn't work, I usually have hockey one night and I like to keep my weekends free... I'm going to add in short intense metcons when I can on weekends / free time and some swimming, but I think I can cram a 5 day split into 4 days without creating too many issues.

I like to have a "program" created so I can track it (I put the weights/reps in an iphone app called GymBuddy) and I can see my week to week progress, which is very helpful for me. Like a science experiment, if it wasn't constant week after week I wouldn't be able to monitor any progress. I just want my "program" to include the best exercises and rep ranges for my goals.
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