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Old 11-27-2012, 11:16 PM   #41
Grande D
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Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
So BMW mixed and matched racks willy nilly, huh? Just whatever Hanz felt like installing that day? For parts that are such significantly different as a 712 and non-712 rack (678), that's pretty surprising. That would be like 330s being installed with 328 brakes on some days and 330 brakes on other days. HMM I THINK I'LL JUST INSTALL 328 BRAKES 2DAY HANZ, WHAT DO U THINK? YA BRO GO 4 it.

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I agree it doesn't make sense.

You won the argument that ZHPs don't have a special rack.

But- I just thought we left the consensus on which rack was used when open. Because a couple people reported other racks- as did the Rack Doctor from 09/01+ 330s.

Rack doctor posted the photo showing that the 712 replaced 10 or so different part numbers that may come in as core racks too.

And sure it doesn't make sense. But some things don't make sense.

Such as why did BMW make up half of the ZHP parts list?

Why did BMW fail to fix the subframe issue of the E36 with the E46?

Why did they put brakes in the F30 328i that stop it in a similar distance of a 90's school bus?

Hanz gets a little drunk sometimes... he's been going to meetings so go easy.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:20 PM   #42
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Not to interject myself into your discussion here, but I believe the reason the F30 328i's have poor braking performance is the tires used.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:29 PM   #43
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Not to interject myself into your discussion here, but I believe the reason the F30 328i's have poor braking performance is the tires used.
Haven't you got the memo?

This forum is all about making points and winning, not telling the truth. We make statements for impact. BOOM!

Welcome to the online branch of the United States Senate.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:56 AM   #44
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OP - did the same thing...I have a 323 and put in a ZHP rack (which is what is posted on the Rack Doctor site) and it is a very nice upgrade. Nicely weighted and very connected. Great upgrade.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:23 AM   #45
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OP - did the same thing...I have a 323 and put in a ZHP rack (which is what is posted on the Rack Doctor site) and it is a very nice upgrade. Nicely weighted and very connected. Great upgrade.
You put in a 9/01+ 330 rack. Not a ZHP rack. Since ZHPs are a MY 03+ car, and all 9/01+ 330s got the 712 rack, you have a 9/01 rack. In other words, it's not a rare, elusive magical sporty racing ///M rack. Great rack, but not ZHP-specific.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:40 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by zhp43867 View Post
Haven't you got the memo?

This forum is all about making points and winning, not telling the truth. We make statements for impact. BOOM!

Welcome to the online branch of the United States Senate.
ZHP43867 you are on a roll tonight with quips..i love it

As Mango said i'm also of the opinion that these 712 racks are going to come up all the same, and the exception to the rule is going to be very very rare (if at all). Until I start to see new evidence of photos from later USA 330s with original racks actually coming up with different rack numbers. I'm still well within all logical reason that they are the same as been hypothesized from current information posted by BMW and online photos posts.
If it's different and as miss-matched as one may make it seem i have no problem saying that is the case. i'm not insisting i must be right. But..i have not seen anything substantial to make someone say otherwise.

as it stands now, if us select few haven't researched and done our homework on this topic we'd still have those insisting the rack was specific only to the 330-zhp and only they got the 13.7 ratio.

i'm not saying it's inconceivable that bmw ran out of ZF brand made racks and maybe had others delivered to install in some factories?? but until someone at ZF or TRW says why (or if infact) they shipped to certain facotries of the 330 i have no absolute answer. at this point it's Speculation.
but i'm still leaning hard to the point the newly referred to #712 13.7:1 ratio rack is all (if not most) late usa 330s.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:52 AM   #47
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We need pix...pix and pix to put this thread to rest.

Op crawl underneath your car and take some pix

Mango..don't get mad. It is not like I don't believe u ....it is just that I don't believe Alex.

I know u r right since u know a lot about BMWs and I see that I u help out a lot of people here with your knowledge.

Oh yeah...inb4 comment about how Alex and u r saying the same thing. I dont want to hear that.

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Old 11-28-2012, 09:21 AM   #48
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Rack Doctor's years of experience > Mango's anecdotal evidence. This argument is silly.

OP, enjoy your new rack!
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:55 AM   #49
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You put in a 9/01+ 330 rack. Not a ZHP rack. Since ZHPs are a MY 03+ car, and all 9/01+ 330s got the 712 rack, you have a 9/01 rack. In other words, it's not a rare, elusive magical sporty racing ///M rack. Great rack, but not ZHP-specific.
Yes, I know this is your stance. But on the Rack Doctor website, it differentiates ZHP racks from others. Rich even explained it over the phone (great guy and wonderful customer service) that there is a difference. So, for the sake of ease, I simply choose to call it a ZHP rack.

As a culture, we come up with quick ways to identify things so others understand it. It is called "slang" or "common language." This is what is happening here. You know there is no such thing as an iTouch, but people call their iPod Touchs, "iTouches." It is not accurate, but it isn't exactly wrong either, since others understand what is being said. Some refer to their shoes as "tennis shoes," when they are wearing running or cross-training shoes, but it is understood.

It really amazes me that this is the hill you want to die on. I mean with all of the "mislabeling" of things going on in society, you have this vendetta against the naming of the 712 rack as "ZHP" and the reason you give is that it is not "it's not a rare, elusive magical sporty racing." I'm really not sure why, nor does it really matter. I will continue to call it a "ZHP rack" even though you don't want people to, simply because it is clear to our forum community what I'm referring to. And that is why it will continue...because that what our little society of e46fanatics commonly understand, or "common language."


Cheers.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:56 AM   #50
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Rack Doctor's years of experience > Mango's anecdotal evidence. This argument is silly.

OP, enjoy your new rack!
lol what are you talking about? Rich (rack doctor) ended up agreeing with alex and me. There's still this "camp" out there that didn't thoroughly read the post. A lot of my "haters" are still thinking the ZHP still has a specific rack. Rich, Alex, myself are ON THE SAME SIDE. it is YOU who is wrong.

Peoples' inability to comprehend and read is astonishing. Go read again.



There's absolutely no valid debate here. None whatsoever. 9/01+ 330 racks are yellow tag 712 racks. Period. We have evidence to support this.

However, we don't have evidence to support the contrary.

Thus, it is reasonable to believe as fact that all 9/01+ 330s got the same 712 rack.

As Alex said, if it turns out BMW mixed-matched racks willy-nilly at the factory, then so be it. But so far, nobody's been able to prove that. And quite frankly, it makes no sense whatsoever from a sales, marketing, and logistics point of view. We might as well conclude BMW used differently spec'd parts elsewhere in the car, as well for the same model and year range.

So far I've looked at three 2002 330s all with the same yellow tag 712 rack. How many rocks must I unturn? Some people are just really angry
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:04 AM   #51
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So much tl;dr in this thread.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #52
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lol what are you talking about? Rich (rack doctor) ended up agreeing with alex and me. There's still this "camp" out there that didn't thoroughly read the post. A lot of my "haters" are still thinking the ZHP still has a specific rack. Rich, Alex, myself are ON THE SAME SIDE. it is YOU who is wrong.

There's absolutely no valid debate here. None whatsoever. 9/01+ 330 racks are yellow tag 712 racks. Period. We have evidence to support this.

However, we don't have evidence to support the contrary.

Thus, it is reasonable to believe as fact that all 9/01+ 330s got the same 712 rack.


As Alex said, if it turns out BMW mixed-matched racks willy-nilly at the factory, then so be it. But so far, nobody's been able to prove that. And quite frankly, it makes no sense whatsoever from a sales, marketing, and logistics point of view. We might as well conclude BMW used differently spec'd parts elsewhere in the car, as well for the same model and year range.

So far I've looked at three 2002 330s all with the same yellow tag 712 rack. How many rocks must I unturn? Some people are just really angry
Three is not enough to make the conclusion that they all have the 712. It just isn't. Especially when...

There is evidence to the contrary. Rack Doctor said when he gets 330 core racks they are varied, and a 10/03 330 rack was posted with a purple tag and a non-712 part number. So no evidence to the contrary is patently false.

As opposed to saying ALL 09/01+ 330s have the 712, and the 712 is the 09/01+ 330 rack, try this:

The 712 rack that you bought is the best one that came preinstalled on any non-M. All ZHPs should have it, and according to RealOEM all 09/01+ 330s should too. There has been anecdotal evidence that 330s from 09/01 or later may have occasionally come with a different rack, so what you really should do is check your 330's rack tag before making the "upgrade" to the 712 rack.

Bam. Done. The trouble is with your language. What you claim as an absolute, is not. And I don't believe Rack Doctor ever even voiced an opinion with regards to that. He's not on your side, or the other side.

Last edited by Grande D; 11-28-2012 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:20 AM   #53
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Three is not enough to make the conclusion that they all have the 712. It just isn't. Especially when...

There is evidence to the contrary. Rack Doctor said when he gets 330 core racks they are varied, and a 10/03 330 rack was posted with a purple tag and a non-712 part number. So no evidence to the contrary is patently false.

As opposed to saying ALL 09/01+ 330s have the 712, and the 712 is the 09/01+ 330 rack, try this:

The 712 rack that you bought is the best one that came preinstalled on any non-M. All ZHPs should have it, and according to RealOEM all 09/01+ 330s should too. There has been anecdotal evidence that 330s from 09/01 or later may have occasionally come with a different rack, so what you really should do is check your 330's rack tag before making the "upgrade" to the 712 rack.

Bam. Done. The trouble is with your language. What you claim as an absolute, is not. And I don't believe Rack Doctor ever even voiced an opinion with regards to that. He's not on your side, or the other side.
IIRC, Rich admitted that that one particular rack he posted could have been swapped at some point in the cars life. Cars get in fender benders all the time you know and often times racks crack. You think your run-of-the-mill body shop is going to track down a specific yellow tag rack for a customers car?

lul.

You might as well argue there's a distinct possibility that SOME 330s came with S54 engines (factory ran out of M54B30s) or that SOME manual 330s came with automatic clutch fans (hanz lost the box of electric fans)

You are clearly pushing the boundaries here of what's reasonable.

Are you religious??
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:26 AM   #54
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Three is not enough to make the conclusion that they all have the 712. It just isn't. Especially when...

There is evidence to the contrary. Rack Doctor said when he gets 330 core racks they are varied, and a 10/03 330 rack was posted with a purple tag and a non-712 part number. So no evidence to the contrary is patently false.

As opposed to saying ALL 09/01+ 330s have the 712, and the 712 is the 09/01+ 330 rack, try this:

The 712 rack that you bought is the best one that came preinstalled on any non-M. All ZHPs should have it, and according to RealOEM all 09/01+ 330s should too. There has been anecdotal evidence that 330s from 09/01 or later may have occasionally come with a different rack, so what you really should do is check your 330's rack tag before making the "upgrade" to the 712 rack.

Bam. Done. The trouble is with your language. What you claim as an absolute, is not. And I don't believe Rack Doctor ever even voiced an opinion with regards to that. He's not on your side, or the other side.
By the way, what other part of the BMW ETK Spare Parts Catalog do you tend to doubt? You'll believe every other parts change, up to, from dates, etc., with the sole exception of the "ZHP rack"?
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:28 AM   #55
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IIRC, Rich admitted that that one particular rack he posted could have been swapped at some point in the cars life. Cars get in fender benders all the time you know and often times racks crack. You think your run-of-the-mill body shop is going to track down a specific yellow tag rack for a customers car?

lul.

You might as well argue there's a distinct possibility that SOME 330s came with S54 engines (factory ran out of M54B30s) or that SOME manual 330s came with automatic clutch fans (hanz lost the box of electric fans)

You are clearly pushing the boundaries here of what's reasonable.

Are you religious??
No I am not.

You are pushing the boundaries by assuming that every non-712 rack Rich received from a post 01 330 was in an accident- which also required the replacement of the rack. Really, really pushing it. I think both sides are equally probable or improbable in this case.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:29 AM   #56
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For ****'s sake.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:30 AM   #57
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By the way, what other part of the BMW ETK Spare Parts Catalog do you tend to doubt? You'll believe every other parts change, up to, from dates, etc., with the sole exception of the "ZHP rack"?
They are occasionally wrong. IIRC the early 96 M3 used some driveline parts from the 95, and it didn't show on RealOEM. I can't say I've checked recently though.

And I wil repeat. Saying that there is no evidence that 330s post 09/01 could come with a rack other than the 712 is patently false.

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:34 AM   #58
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For ****'s sake.
Yep.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:41 AM   #59
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They are occasionally wrong. IIRC the early 96 M3 used some driveline parts from the 95, and it didn't show on RealOEM. I can't say I've checked recently though.

And I wil repeat. Saying that there is no evidence that 330s post 09/01 could come with a rack other than the 712 is patently false.
What? You saw one picture of a rack outside of a car? How about the photos I posted ( as well as others have posted) with racks INSIDE of the car? How about all the eBay racks for US-spec 330s with a yellow 712 tag (claiming to be out of an 02+ 330?)

lul.

OK, ETK could be wrong. you cite one example. (didn't prove, just cite) what makes you think they're wrong about this? What else do you think the parts diagram system is wrong about? Lets hear.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:42 AM   #60
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So... I just searched all the part numbers Rack Doctor posted in this picture. Less than half of them came up on RealOEM. None of the TRW racks came up on RealOEM. Mango, do you really think that RealOEM is infallible?

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