2004 M3 to 2006 330Ci ZHP, Will

Originally Posted by bbenj10

I’m considering trading in my 2004 M3 w/ SMG and picking up a 2004 330Ci ZHP. Both cars have about the same miles (50K) and are in about the same good condition. My main reason for considering this is to switch from a SMG to a 6MT. I learned to like the SMG and after about a month of having the car was much smoother with it than when I got it. But I still wish I was able to row my own gears at times. I’ve looked at the conversion (way too much money IMO and would void the warranty I bought
The 330 Ci ZHP I found on CL did wow me though. Black Sapphire Metallic over Black Interior. Love the look of the interior trim on the ZHP, and the price is good too. I assume gas will be almost a wash between the two, but maintenance would certainly be a little less on the 330.

if the main reason is for a stick shift, I would wait for an M3 manual.
sure gas is going to be much better in the 330
for a daily driver if you already say you don't use the power now, the 100 Hp less is still enough for daily driving
the 330 will be much quieter!
as long as you're getting a lot more for your M3 than paying for the 330 this could be fine. but if only a few thousand more no way!!

Originally Posted by webster

..but not even 7k ZHPs. And the majority of those are sedans, not coupes.

can you tell me where you were provided this info?

The M3 i'm looking at is a fully loaded 2005 Silver Gray Metallic at about $28k with 50k miles from a dealership about 8 hours drive from me. The ZHP is a 2006 with 55k miles for $18k, and it's local. It's a tough call, leaning towards another M3 if it doesn't bankrupt me!

OP: Your gut will tell you if it'll be a good move to go from the M3 to the ZHP. You may miss the limited slip (depends on how hard you drive). You will miss the power. Brakes and handling are not all that different in everyday driving. The M3 does feel slightly more nose heavy (due to the beastly motor) if both are on the track, but the LSD definitely helps make up for that. The gas mileage is not all that close: 16-18 vs 21-25 in my experience. The sound and feel of the two cars is very, very different and is also subjective.

Both are very nice cars built for different purposes.

And of course part of this thread had to turn into a bickering match. I don't think suspensions are blown at 50k, some may not even be completely shot at 100k. There is no doubt that they aren't "good as new" at that point though. The struts I removed from my zhp (330 sport shocks) at 105k rebounded perfectly. They were not blown. I'm sure they weren't up to original operating performance though.

Now in contrast, I remember fiveightandten bought new Sachs shocks for his E36 M3 and IIRC some were leaking before he even had 15k miles or so on them.

Also, not all Sachs shocks are created equal. The earlier E46s with the sport package have a better built Sachs dampers that are part of a different class of Sachs dampers, and will last longer than those in the newer E46s. That doesn't apply to early E46 non-sports though.

Originally Posted by webster

making a blanket statement "any car with XX,XXX miles will have a blown suspension" is just ridiculous. that ignores road condition and driving style completely as well as previous owner maintenance history.

Agreed. My 2001 330ci has 159Kmiles on original sport suspension. I have even bought a replacement already - ST Coilovers 90222 - but I have no real reason to replace the OEM suspension, it is still good! (Sachs, btw!) So, coilovers just gather dust in my garage....

Originally Posted by Alex323Ci

can you tell me where you were provided this info?

discussion of ZHP production numbers here: http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showt...ed-(Population)

notable quote:

Originally Posted by nk_zhp

I just looked at large set of sedans on cars.com and they all fall into a range I accounted for. So there you have it 17K sedans 30K coupes/convers. 47000 total cars that *may* have the option fitted. I think the prediction of 10% - 20% seems reasonable, even from just the percentage of for sale listing of ZHPs vs non. we're talking 4-7k cars. I recall a while ago that dealers often were using 4K as the target count and they often were dismissed as intentional hype to sell more vehicles.... this one might actually be true.

sedan/coupe ratio extrapolated from here:
http://www.zhpregistry.net/Stats.aspx

and from PDF halfway down this page:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...548352&page=35

After 160K miles there is no way your suspension is still "good". No shocks last that long. Put new ones in and you'll see. I'm sure mine have already lost most of their damping ability. I bounce on bridges way too much and the rebound is too high. I almost came out of my seat yesterday because of it. That's not good b/c that means the tires almost lost it too. BTW, that's the safety thing Mango hit on earlier today, maybe in another thread.

Originally Posted by webster

discussion of ZHP production numbers here: http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showt...ed-(Population)

notable quote:
sedan/coupe ratio extrapolated from here:
http://www.zhpregistry.net/Stats.aspx

and from PDF halfway down this page:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...548352&page=35

i'm sorry but maybe i missed the one solid factual reference from BMW. (and i may have so forgive me)
but that is some rather very limited attempt at coming up with those numbers. and no way is that a source that anyone should reference as being a defining number. maybe a minimun number that they know of from collected postings. but no way close to being the maxed out number.

even on the zhpmaf site they post in the homepage's FAQs they don't know the number.

of course no one knows the exact numbers because BMWNA never released them. still, that's a viable estimate. let's leave that debate for another thread though, as i doubt the OP cares. the fact is there are many, many more M3s than ZHPs out there.

BMW isn't going to give numbers on this kind of thing. To the company, the ZHP is just an option package. There was no reason in particular to release that information over premium package cars or whatever package. BMW just says, yeah, we produced 1 million E46 cars period. They know the numbers, but they have no reason to release them. We will never know.

Originally Posted by webster

of course no one knows the exact numbers because BMWNA never released them. still, that's a viable estimate. let's leave that debate for another thread though, as i doubt the OP cares. the fact is there are many, many more M3s than ZHPs out there.

yes there are many more production M3s.

agreed the less than 7,000 330-zhps is lacking substance and SHOULD NEVER be posted as a fact until it is proven to have substance or backed with facts.

there are fewer M3-ZCPs than 330-zhps, even less 323ci convertibles hehe gotta laugh at that one

sure you remove/edit your less than 7,000 zhp made posted as a fact and i'll delete my unnecessary off topic correction of incorrect fact.

anyhow back to the OP.

i'd take a good listen to Charlie (cak323i) as he is a daily driver of both an M3 and 330-zhp.

(well not daily driver of M3 now it's in car cave hibernating like a bear/beast it is)

will like to hear what you think when you test drive it.

Originally Posted by Alex323Ci

anyhow back to the OP.

i'd take a good listen to Charlie (cak323i) as he is a daily driver of both an M3 and 330-zhp.

(well not daily driver of M3 now it's in car cave hibernating like a bear/beast it is)

will like to hear what you think when you test drive it.

Thanks Alex

Yeah, I'm interested in hearing what OP thinks after taking a test drive. Everyone have their preferences and if I lived in Cali I probably wouldn't have gotten my ZHP and driven my ///M full time.

Being up here in New England....the option to buy a ZHP in half-way decent condition came up and I was beginning to look for another project so I got it. As I said I didn't enjoy driving my ///M in the winters up here although it more than handled the winter weather adequately....with all the modding I wanted to keep my ///M fresh so I got the ZHP....of course I'm modding the heck out of my ZHP (go figure!!!) Mileage is nothing for either cars as I have 149k on the ///M and 132k on the ZHP....as long as you maintain your car there shouldn't be any major issues unless you beat on them... There are days where I miss driving my ///M and when the roads are perfect, even in winter, I will take the ///M out for a spin

Anyway....now that I have my ZHP for daily driving I feel I have the best of both worlds...

Thanks for all the input guys. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be able to test drive the ZHP this weekend, should give me the last feedback i need to decide whether i should go for it.

I have extensive experience with both. I don't think the "daiy drivability" of the ZHP is enough to warrant buying one over an M3. IMO, the M3 did not ride significantly harder than the ZHP. Not a very popular opinion - but unlike many m3's out there, my stock shocks were still good. IMO with equal tires, both cars have similar ride comfort.

That said, the m3's harder to drive. Steering is a lot stiffer, shifter is stiffer, clutch is stiffer, brakes are stiffer, and throttle is a lot more sensitive. So in that sense it's more tiring to DD - it requires more physical effort and finesse to operate. The engine is a bear to drive smoothly in the cold. And you have to be a lot more careful with power delivery. The ZHP was so slow that it was damn near impossible to break it loose. The M3 on the other hand comes with the same width tires and 100 more horses. So if you're not careful in the lower gears, you can get in trouble.

That said, I love the extra power. It's a godsend to have on the highway and when driving uphill. I can't go back.

If I wanted something more DDable than an M3, I'd go with a 535 or so at this point.

Oh and for winter driving I prefer the m3. The LSD has gotten me through conditions that my ZHP would have never gone through. I use the same winter tires, so that's not a factor in this case.

I got similar gas mileage in the M3 and ZHP. Averaged 22-23 in both. The key is to refrain from revving to 8k when you're just going on a cruise. The car sucks a lot of fuel towards redline. Cruising at 65mph, I can get a little above 30mpg.

Those drives when I choose to have a bit of fun end up netting 16mpg