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Old 12-04-2012, 02:05 AM   #21
alexxander.foster
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Sweet! So the Valeo flywheel weighs less (though the difference is so little its pretty much irrelevant). Good to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkodama View Post
from BMWfans.info

Dual Mass for 2001 330i:
Flywheel - 24.89 lbs
Pressure Plate and Clutch Disc - 14.55 lbs

Single Mass:
Flywheel - 23.60 lbs
Pressure Plate and Clutch Disc - 10.85 lbs

Essentially the same weight.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:46 AM   #22
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This is what the 6 speed pilot bearing set-up looks like. This is the only flywheel I have to show the unique design of it.

Please excuse the terrible iPhone pic....


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Old 12-04-2012, 09:23 AM   #23
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Probably another positive benefit of this set-up is that in the future, when you replace your clutch you could remove the flywheel and have it machined/cleaned as opposed to having to replace the dual mass each time. I know you don' have to replace the fly wheel, but its still nice to have a unit you can service and reuse.
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:18 AM   #24
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Very cool stuff..! Bookmarked, please be sure to post your impressions about fuel economy and other aspects as you accumulate miles on this setup. Now I need to figure out if Valeo makes this for the E90/92 for when I will need a new clutch (years away)..
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:55 PM   #25
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Pft! Besides a little motion blur, it looks like it was taken with a DSLR -haha! Seems like TitaniumCranium is right, the input shaft is shorter. I cant imagine any other reason why they'd push out the pilot bearing so deep into the bell housing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian@BavAuto View Post
This is what the 6 speed pilot bearing set-up looks like. This is the only flywheel I have to show the unique design of it.

Please excuse the terrible iPhone pic....


Yes! You're absolutely right about these solid mass flywheels being serviceable. That was a big selling feature for me too! I honestly would have preferred a replaceable insert like what comes with the UUC/Fidanza lightweight flywheels (that is a very clever idea) but I'm still extremely satisfied.

Also, I'm pretty sure you do have to change the dual mass flywheel each time. What I dug up was was that although the dual mass flywheel has a longer service interval than the pressure plate and the clutch, its not all that much longer. The reason its not a lifetime part is because of the dampening mechanisms inside the dual mass flywheel. When that part wares out or sustains damage (like mine did) its trash. I read several posts on here from self professed BMW mechanics stating they refuse to reuse the dual mass flywheel under any circumstances because in the past its always failed before the clutch and they've had to do a second clutch job for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReallyDirtyThirty View Post
Probably another positive benefit of this set-up is that in the future, when you replace your clutch you could remove the flywheel and have it machined/cleaned as opposed to having to replace the dual mass each time. I know you don' have to replace the fly wheel, but its still nice to have a unit you can service and reuse.
Yes! I've actually been meaning to post an update about how it feels. I'll do that in a separate post. Thanks for reminding me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammk View Post
Very cool stuff..! Bookmarked, please be sure to post your impressions about fuel economy and other aspects as you accumulate miles on this setup. Now I need to figure out if Valeo makes this for the E90/92 for when I will need a new clutch (years away)..

Last edited by alexxander.foster; 12-04-2012 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:38 PM   #26
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PROGRESS REPORT:

So far the clutch and flywheel are holding up well to my daily abuse. I've punched it a ton, had to slip the clutch waiting at stop signs on a 20% grade hill, and had to deal with lots of gridlock traffic crawling already. It performs great and feels like its MUCH more resilient than the stock clutch assembly. I could always feel buildup on my clutch when I was sitting in gridlock for too long -even when the clutch was relatively new. But this one holds up great no matter how bad traffic is. I was on the receiving end of a road rage incident in the city last week and my new clutch saved my ass! Guy ran at me with a gun, I threw it in reverse but didn't give it barely enough gas (adrenalin pumping so technique was a low priority) and dumped the clutch: car didn't stall out and rocketed in reverse like a bat out of hell! The old assembly would have likely stalled me out.

Overall my current impression are still the same as my initial impressions: feels very much like a stock unit except more responsive, more predictable. Also, I still want to say that the car has better bite. Something I've noticed from the start but have just been able to articulate is the way the car responds when you bog down the motor to the point where it jerks back and fourth eating up driveline slop. The old dual mass flywheel would definitely smooth out the jerkiness, but it would resonate like a spring... back and fourth, back and fourth. The new sprung hub clutch is much more violent when you make a technical mistake, but it only jerks once, maybe 1.5 times, then its done and the car is back to normal.

One big update has to do with the shift lever interaction. Something I noticed right away was the car didn't let me slide the shift lever into gear quite as easily as it use to. At first I thought I didn't top off the transmission fluid enough. Then I thought it was a cold weather condition. But after going under the car several times to verify things I realized that its related to the new clutch assembly and the gear chatter. The gear chatter is interfering with the synchromeshes. Now, before anyone gets upset by this, I have to say that I'm not exactly the best when it comes to rev matching. I've become quite lazy. So I'd be willing to bet if you're practicing good shifting technique and doing proper rev matching then this will resolve itself easily. However, if you're like me and you're lazy with rev matching then I wouldn't describe it as a major issue, just something that will take some getting use to. Effectively, you're going to have to start feeling out when the syncros match up instead of just presuming they already match up. If you don't I can imagine the synchros being wore out prematurely.

Regarding fuel economy, the type of driving I do is far too erratic to get any sort of reliable baseline. My gut feeling is that yes, fuel economy has gone down, but I cant be certain and don't have any proof to back this up. Regardless of which direction the fuel economy is going, I'd be shocked if the change was anything greater than a 1/4 MPG -and even that seems generous. More than likely we're talking about a shift of a +/- 5 mile per tank range shift.

Chime in if theres something specific you'd like me to comment on or talk about!
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:04 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
Guy ran at me with a gun
Dang..!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
One big update has to do with the shift lever interaction. Something I noticed right away was the car didn't let me slide the shift lever into gear quite as easily as it use to. At first I thought I didn't top off the transmission fluid enough. Then I thought it was a cold weather condition. But after going under the car several times to verify things I realized that its related to the new clutch assembly and the gear chatter. The gear chatter is interfering with the synchromeshes. Now, before anyone gets upset by this, I have to say that I'm not exactly the best when it comes to rev matching. I've become quite lazy. So I'd be willing to bet if you're practicing good shifting technique and doing proper rev matching then this will resolve itself easily. However, if you're like me and you're lazy with rev matching then I wouldn't describe it as a major issue, just something that will take some getting use to. Effectively, you're going to have to start feeling out when the syncros match up instead of just presuming they already match up. If you don't I can imagine the synchros being wore out prematurely.
Have you done a CDV delete, or are you running the stock valve?
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:45 PM   #28
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Alex - Some good information here. Especially driving behavior notes.

Most (if not all) of the lightweight flywheels offer replaceable surface inserts, however I'm not sure they really offer that much benefit. They aren't really user servicealbe because they should be rebalanced when replaced. This means you need to send the flywheel away if you're replacing the surface during a clutch replacement, when time may be your worst enemy.

On the other hand you should be able to just take the Valeo single-mass down to the machine shop and have them resurface it. Simple, quick, and Local.

I contacted Valeo last evening. They're engaged; I received a response this morning. They haven't tested the flywheel to determine if it will accept a pilot bearing yet. I've asked them if they would test and get back to me.

For anyone interested in contacting Valeo directly here is their email address -> VT-CustomerService@Valeo.com


^ This picture shows the deep recess in the end of the crankshaft used for 5-speed applications.


^ This is a shot of the pilot-bearing installed in the flywheel for 6-speed applications. Not a Valeo but a competitors design.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:47 PM   #29
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Perfect timing for this thread.

Question: It is my understanding that DMFs are tuned up to a specific horsepower, while SMFs can handle a wide range. What is the maximum horsepower that our DMFs can handle? Not that I will ever reach that much HP, I'm just curious
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:25 PM   #30
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hmm... interesting read. I hope this company produces a kit for the E46 M3.

Last edited by iampoor; 12-05-2012 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:37 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
PROGRESS REPORT:

One big update has to do with the shift lever interaction. Something I noticed right away was the car didn't let me slide the shift lever into gear quite as easily as it use to. At first I thought I didn't top off the transmission fluid enough. Then I thought it was a cold weather condition. But after going under the car several times to verify things I realized that its related to the new clutch assembly and the gear chatter. The gear chatter is interfering with the synchromeshes. Now, before anyone gets upset by this, I have to say that I'm not exactly the best when it comes to rev matching. I've become quite lazy. So I'd be willing to bet if you're practicing good shifting technique and doing proper rev matching then this will resolve itself easily. However, if you're like me and you're lazy with rev matching then I wouldn't describe it as a major issue, just something that will take some getting use to. Effectively, you're going to have to start feeling out when the syncros match up instead of just presuming they already match up. If you don't I can imagine the synchros being wore out prematurely.
Dang, this kills it for me. I have a hard enough time with my OE setup getting into gear (135k miles and the 2nd gear synchro is a little tired) so I couldn't risk losing any further shifting ability. Appreciate the update though! Your helping people make informed decisions.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:45 PM   #32
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No CDV for me. I did a 5-speed swap on my e46 so during the install I got to pick and choose what to throw into the car. I also upgraded to the UUC shifter, selector rod, and braided clutch hose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammk View Post
Have you done a CDV delete, or are you running the stock valve?
That's really interesting... I guess that makes complete sense that you should be balancing your flywheel when you replace the insert. In that case you're right.

Also, you mentioned a "competitors design", does somebody else make a single mass flywheel conversion for the 6 speed guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniumCranium View Post
Alex - Some good information here. Especially driving behavior notes.

Most (if not all) of the lightweight flywheels offer replaceable surface inserts, however I'm not sure they really offer that much benefit. They aren't really user servicealbe because they should be rebalanced when replaced. This means you need to send the flywheel away if you're replacing the surface during a clutch replacement, when time may be your worst enemy.

On the other hand you should be able to just take the Valeo single-mass down to the machine shop and have them resurface it. Simple, quick, and Local.

I contacted Valeo last evening. They're engaged; I received a response this morning. They haven't tested the flywheel to determine if it will accept a pilot bearing yet. I've asked them if they would test and get back to me.

For anyone interested in contacting Valeo directly here is their email address -> VT-CustomerService@Valeo.com


^ This picture shows the deep recess in the end of the crankshaft used for 5-speed applications.


^ This is a shot of the pilot-bearing installed in the flywheel for 6-speed applications. Not a Valeo but a competitors design.
Interesting bit of info. I suppose that would make sense because the spring dampening mechanism inside the dual mass flywheel can only handle X-amount of power from the engine before its rendered useless. Anywho, I wish I could comment on the power range of the stock part. Perhaps somebody should email or call LUK and ask them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zell View Post
Perfect timing for this thread.

Question: It is my understanding that DMFs are tuned up to a specific horsepower, while SMFs can handle a wide range. What is the maximum horsepower that our DMFs can handle? Not that I will ever reach that much HP, I'm just curious
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:16 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
PROGRESS REPORT:



One big update has to do with the shift lever interaction. Something I noticed right away was the car didn't let me slide the shift lever into gear quite as easily as it use to. At first I thought I didn't top off the transmission fluid enough. Then I thought it was a cold weather condition. But after going under the car several times to verify things I realized that its related to the new clutch assembly and the gear chatter. The gear chatter is interfering with the synchromeshes. Now, before anyone gets upset by this, I have to say that I'm not exactly the best when it comes to rev matching. I've become quite lazy. So I'd be willing to bet if you're practicing good shifting technique and doing proper rev matching then this will resolve itself easily. However, if you're like me and you're lazy with rev matching then I wouldn't describe it as a major issue, just something that will take some getting use to. Effectively, you're going to have to start feeling out when the syncros match up instead of just presuming they already match up. If you don't I can imagine the synchros being wore out prematurely.

Alex, thanks for all of the info, it's great to have this kind of feedback for future customers!

I have to ask about this paragraph though, do you think this relates solely to the new flywheel/clutch assembly or could the additional effort be attributed to the short shift kit?

When you talk about the gear chatter, is it the sound you'd hear with a lightweight flywheel set up? Like a rattle at idle with your foot off of the clutch, or is it all RPM's/driving conditions? We have a 2003 530i here in house that we installed this kit on to replace a lightweight flywheel package. It actually eliminated the rattle and made the shifting nice and smooth, and that car still had a short shift kit installed.

Thanks

Ian
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:36 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
One big update has to do with the shift lever interaction. Something I noticed right away was the car didn't let me slide the shift lever into gear quite as easily as it use to. At first I thought I didn't top off the transmission fluid enough. Then I thought it was a cold weather condition. But after going under the car several times to verify things I realized that its related to the new clutch assembly and the gear chatter. The gear chatter is interfering with the synchromeshes. Now, before anyone gets upset by this, I have to say that I'm not exactly the best when it comes to rev matching. I've become quite lazy. So I'd be willing to bet if you're practicing good shifting technique and doing proper rev matching then this will resolve itself easily. However, if you're like me and you're lazy with rev matching then I wouldn't describe it as a major issue, just something that will take some getting use to. Effectively, you're going to have to start feeling out when the syncros match up instead of just presuming they already match up. If you don't I can imagine the synchros being wore out prematurely.
If I had to guess, It isnt the gear chatter making it difficult getting into gear, but the heavier disk (with the sprung hub and all), as it takes more effort for the syncros to slow down / speed up a disk because of more weight. The stock dual mass disk looks very light from the pics.

I have a LWFW on another car (non bmw) and the chatter is pretty bad, but gear shifts are effortless because I am now on a lighter unsprung hub vs sprung.

I wondered what adding weight to the disk with a sprung hub would do to the syncros.
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:20 PM   #35
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Hey Ian,

Funny, a friend just asked me the same question about whether or not the shifter could be the culprit. Still, I sincerely have my doubts. Reason being: I've had the short throw shifter in the car for 4+ years. Its never once given me any sort of issues along these lines. Right up to when the old clutch & flywheel came out, the car shifted nicely no matter how I drove the car. After the Valeo kit went in, I started having to slow down my shifts or rev match otherwise I'd experience notchiness. If I slowed down my shifts or rev matched then it shifted exactly the same as it did before.

And just to clarify, it doesn't feel like more effort is needed, it feels like the synchros aren't lined up yet -hence me describing this as "notchy". If I used more effort I'm sure I'd be breaking something -haha!

Regarding the gear chatter, yes, that's the perfect analogy! It sounds like something out of a lightweight flywheel setup. But its honestly sooooo subtle. I really don't want to make an issue out of it or to have people exaggerating this beyond what it is. You have to be doing some major concentration to hear anything -its that hard to detect. Furthermore, I cant rule out whether or not this is a problem that's unique to my car. I'm only writing my observations and letting others decide how it pertains to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian@BavAuto View Post
Alex, thanks for all of the info, it's great to have this kind of feedback for future customers!

I have to ask about this paragraph though, do you think this relates solely to the new flywheel/clutch assembly or could the additional effort be attributed to the short shift kit?

When you talk about the gear chatter, is it the sound you'd hear with a lightweight flywheel set up? Like a rattle at idle with your foot off of the clutch, or is it all RPM's/driving conditions? We have a 2003 530i here in house that we installed this kit on to replace a lightweight flywheel package. It actually eliminated the rattle and made the shifting nice and smooth, and that car still had a short shift kit installed.

Thanks

Ian
Hey NoMoreIdeas, perfect timing! I'd say your assessment of the syncros is exactly what I'm experiencing. If I just slow down my gear shifts then the syncros line up perfectly and it goes into gear exactly the same as it did with the stock DMF setup. Increased momentum sounds like a very likely culprit.

Still, something that doesn't add up is that we already got definitive weights on both the Valeo clutch kit and the stock setup listed in this thread. The stock dual mass flywheel is heavier by a few lbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMoreIdeas View Post
If I had to guess, It isnt the gear chatter making it difficult getting into gear, but the heavier disk (with the sprung hub and all), as it takes more effort for the syncros to slow down / speed up a disk because of more weight. The stock dual mass disk looks very light from the pics.

I have a LWFW on another car (non bmw) and the chatter is pretty bad, but gear shifts are effortless because I am now on a lighter unsprung hub vs sprung.

I wondered what adding weight to the disk with a sprung hub would do to the syncros.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:16 PM   #36
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HStill, something that doesn't add up is that we already got definitive weights on both the Valeo clutch kit and the stock setup listed in this thread. The stock dual mass flywheel is heavier by a few lbs.
It is.. thats something that doesnt make sense to me. Looking at the pics, the sprung hub definitely looks heavier than the stock disk. However, there arent weights listed for just the disk, but the disk and pressure plate together, and even combined its lighter than the dual mass. Strange..
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:41 PM   #37
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Hmmm... well, when I get a chance ill weigh all the components that came out of my car. Not sure if that'll help, but it couldn't hurt. Perhaps you're right about the weight of the clutch disk.

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It is.. thats something that doesnt make sense to me. Looking at the pics, the sprung hub definitely looks heavier than the stock disk. However, there arent weights listed for just the disk, but the disk and pressure plate together, and even combined its lighter than the dual mass. Strange..
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:38 PM   #38
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PROGRESS REPORT:

I was on the receiving end of a road rage incident in the city last week and my new clutch saved my ass! Guy ran at me with a gun,
Okay, cross SF off my list of places to live....
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:55 PM   #39
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Hahaha! The SFPD officer who responded told me a bad batch of drugs hit the streets here. After a year of zero drama, I had a gun flashed at me once and my girlfriend had a knife pulled on her twice by two different guys in a single week! But SFPD rocks! They kept my girlfriend and I safe with our respective incidents.

I grew up in LA and in comparison this is honestly a very friendly and safe city. But its got its bad spots for sure. In one of the worst neighborhoods, Hunter's Point, we've got every kind of inner city ghetto problem you can imagine. Fun fact, in Hunter's Point, most teens who live there have never seen the Golden Gate Bridge... the nearest vista to the bridge is 5 miles away! Apparently theres some super hood video called 'Straight Outta Hunter's Point' that chronicles the life and times of some of the gang bangers in that neighborhood -hahahahaha!

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Okay, cross SF off my list of places to live....
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:36 PM   #40
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Also, you mentioned a "competitors design", does somebody else make a single mass flywheel conversion for the 6 speed guys?
I am running a lightweight flywheel. The competitor is JB Racing (JBR is imprinted on the flywheel at about the 10 o'clock position).

I know that there are several lightweight single-mass flywheels made for 6-speed applications, JBR, Fidanza, and UUC (Ian's picture). JBR makes a lightened steel one that's 20 lbs too but it's about $850; specifically designed for the weight restrictions on Koni challenge cars although it can be used for your daily driver too. Just more expensive than necessary.
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