Peter Schiff takes on Tax "rates" (WSJ)

Originally Posted by tock172

If you are truly desiring of wealth and you have the intellectual or physical ability to attain it, then the only thing possible of preventing you from attaining it is your own attitude and mental motivation.

Who would disagree with that?

Originally Posted by Lair

Who would disagree with that?

You. You claim to hate the rich for exchanging their valuable productive ability for personal wealth.

Originally Posted by Act of God

I think he meant to say that wealth IS finite, which is why he supports confiscation of wealth since ALL the wealth is hoarded by evil white people. If he thought wealth WASN'T finite he would have no problem with people holding their wealth since everyone is free to get theirs as well.

There is no fixed pie, hence it doesn't matter who has what. They aren't holding you from getting some yourself.

Yes, we agree. I was trying to equate the amount of money in the market to the amount of energy in the universe. There is a conserved amount of energy in the universe that is never destroyed or created. Rather, it simply changes form. Wealth is different. While it may take many forms, it is not conserved. You may create it yourself. Just because someone has a lot does not mean you cannot have that amount, or more yourself. The only limiting factor is the individual.

Originally Posted by evolved

Were they doing this in the 90's when tax rates were much higher? People still paid capital gains taxes. I'm not talking about meteoric rises in rates....I'm talking about limiting deductions, slight increases in rates, etc.

Trust me, I don't doubt what you're saying. I work with these very people on a daily basis ($1mm+ in investable assets) and most of them expect their rates to go up at some point as they are quite low currently.

Yes, people with enough wealth to bother protecting have always sought out tax havens and taken advantage of tax code. I don't call them loopholes because it's all written in the tax code itself. I don't blame them for doing this. Instead I feel the government should work harder to create a more friendly environment for investment (whether it's commercial or something as simple as someone wanting to start their own venture.) How should they do this? Well I think the best way is to leave people to their own devices, but this is where the arguments begin.

Originally Posted by tock172

Yes, people with enough wealth to bother protecting have always sought out tax havens and taken advantage of tax code. I don't call them loopholes because it's all written in the tax code itself. I don't blame them for doing this. Instead I feel the government should work harder to create a more friendly environment for investment (whether it's commercial or something as simple as someone wanting to start their own venture.) How should they do this? Well I think the best way is to leave people to their own devices, but this is where the arguments begin.

Loopholes, tax code, tax breaks.....it's all the same thing. In that same vein, I don't find anything wrong with lower/middle income people paying zero income taxes....afterall, it's all part of the tax code.

I don't blame the wealthy for doing it either, hell, I help them find ways to lower their tax bill as part of my job, but raising rates isn't going to cause the end of investments nor America.

Originally Posted by tock172

You. You claim to hate the rich for exchanging their valuable productive ability for personal wealth.

Yeah?

When and where did I do that?

Originally Posted by evolved

but raising rates isn't going to cause the end of investments nor America.

The end of investment? Of course not, but it definitely influences peoples decisions. I follow the financial markets and specificity stocks, commodities and indicators very closely during the work week. Since Obama's reelection, hedge funds, institutional investors and individuals alike are selling off to lock in gains before tax rates increase. This is driving some indicators and stock prices disproportionately low thus decreasing returns.

Originally Posted by Lair

Yeah?

When and where did I do that?

About 45 minutes ago in this thread:

Originally Posted by Lair

The rich can take their money and their wh0res and shove it.

Originally Posted by tock172

About 45 minutes ago in this thread:

If the rich are going to whine about taxes and healthcare, and try to hide all their money while moving to another country to escape paying their fair share, then yes.

Fvck 'em if they think extortion is patriotic. They can all eat shlt.

Originally Posted by tock172

The end of investment? Of course not, but it definitely influences peoples decisions. I follow the financial markets and specificity stocks, commodities and indicators very closely during the work week. Since Obama's reelection, hedge funds, institutional investors and individuals alike are selling off to lock in gains before tax rates increase. This is driving some indicators and stock prices disproportionately low thus decreasing returns.

My clients have been taking gains in an effort to rebalance on the cheap, so to speak. It's important to point out, however, that they aren't going to cash or FI, they're buying back into similar sectors/exposures.

Originally Posted by evolved

I think your scenario is an extreme example of what could happen. Without a doubt it will be the case for some, but I would venture to say definitely NOT the majority.

If they hide it, they'll be found and will have to deal with the consequences (as they should).

If they move it to offshore accounts, they still have to pay taxes on it.

The ones that have the wealth to go out and buy a few islands are the extreme minority of the rich.

The bottom line, for me at least, is that revenues need to go up and spending needs to go down.

Obviously I meant legally. You and I know that the truly wealthy are not in business to give their money away. It is not an extreme example but rather reality. The rich will dodge these taxes. The government forecasts 80bn a year (enough for 8 days) but the reality will probably be closer to 20, at the expense of hundreds of thousands of jobs as well as the additional tax burden on the middle class to make up the difference.

Originally Posted by Lair

If the rich are going to whine about taxes and healthcare, and try to hide all their money while moving to another country to escape paying their fair share, then yes.

Fvck 'em if they think extortion is patriotic. They can all eat shlt.

A lot of them have already payed multiples of what their 'fair share' would be.

I'm not sure how you consider moving funds into a tax haven extortion. I would think you're actually avoiding being extorted by the government in this case because more than likely, the money is going to be squandered and misallocated. In many ways, I would feel better using my money as toilet paper than giving it to elected politicians to play with

Originally Posted by evolved

My clients have been taking gains in an effort to rebalance on the cheap, so to speak. It's important to point out, however, that they aren't going to cash or FI, they're buying back into similar sectors/exposures.

Maybe it's just the investor circle I have or the community I'm part of because a lot of people I know are pulling out in favor of cash over the next few months

Originally Posted by Lair

If the rich are going to whine about taxes and healthcare, and try to hide all their money while moving to another country to escape paying their fair share, then yes.

Fvck 'em if they think extortion is patriotic. They can all eat shlt.

Yea, that's always good for an economy. Send employers elsewhere along with their capital. Detroit is doing really well, I mean, rich people are flocking to open businesses there. The rich do nothing but burden our economy. We should leave Newark and Compton alone so they can blossom.

Originally Posted by tock172

Maybe it's just the investor circle I have or the community I'm part of because a lot of people I know are pulling out in favor of cash over the next few months

I'm of the mind that long term strategic asset allocation beats market timing. Of course there are short term tactical tweaks to make on a regular basis, but going into mostly cash is a bit much, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by tock172

A lot of them have already payed multiples of what their 'fair share' would be.

Everyone has an opinion.

Originally Posted by tock172

A lot of them have already payed multiples of what their 'fair share' would be.

I'm not sure how you consider moving funds into a tax haven extortion. I would think you're actually avoiding being extorted by the government in this case because more than likely, the money is going to be squandered and misallocated. In many ways, I would feel better using my money as toilet paper than giving it to elected politicians to play with



Maybe it's just the investor circle I have or the community I'm part of because a lot of people I know are pulling out in favor of cash over the next few months

He doesn't get it. He doesn't understand that moving your business to Ireland, a nation with a good workforce and 12% corporate tax makes for good business. Like I said, my family is friends with a few rich people, some of them billionaires. They got their money from Russia. As a result, they move their money around where it best suits them and their company. He has a tough time understanding that he would be living in a box if it wasn't for the rich.

Originally Posted by evolved

I'm of the mind that long term strategic asset allocation beats market timing and I view going into a majority cash is market timing (for the most part).

I agree with your statements but what dismays me about hearing what my friends are planning to do is the fact that had Romney won the election, they would be a lot less risk averse with their assets. Don't get me wrong, I did not vote for Romney, this is just the sentiment I get from a lot of individuals I discuss the market with.

Originally Posted by evolved

I'm of the mind that long term strategic asset allocation beats market timing. Of course there are short term tactical tweaks to make on a regular basis, but going into mostly cash is a bit much, in my opinion.

Most of the people I know are investing everywhere but the US.

Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc

Yea, that's always good for an economy. Send employers elsewhere along with their capital. Detroit is doing really well, I mean, rich people are flocking to open businesses there. The rich do nothing but burden our economy. We should leave Newark and Compton alone so they can blossom.

Nobody is sending anyone anywhere.

Don't try to act like the wealthy haven't had it made here for the last ten years. They need to support the country that helped them make that cash.

This is America, not some third world sh*thole where the people with the cash make all the rules.

We're not going to be a countery of slaves for greedy f*cks who think they did it all on their own - no matter how much you want it to be.

Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc

Most of the people I know are investing everywhere but the US.

REAL patriots!

Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc

Most of the people I know are investing everywhere but the US.

Most big institutions are lowering their exposure to domestic equities, but not getting out of it. On a global scale we're still a good buy.....the EU is more than likely in a recession, or heading that direction. China's growth is slowing down along with a bunch of the other emerging markets.