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Old 12-09-2012, 11:37 AM   #21
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Did you bother to read the next section of your link, or did you stop when you thought you had proof that Jefferson wanted the US to be a religious state?
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:46 AM   #22
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Where did I say that Jefferson wanted the US to be a religious state? As usual you are an idiot.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:21 PM   #23
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This
Christmas for most is not religious. It is simply a holiday season. Like I said, I'm Jewish but enjoy Christmas and this time of year very much.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:32 PM   #24
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That is true. But i still think religion is all fake. If anything its just a set of guidelines to live by in order to lead a kind of good life.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:34 PM   #25
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Where did I say that Jefferson wanted the US to be a religious state? As usual you are an idiot.
Lair is usually an idiot? Did not know that. Usually, idiots are idiots all the time. When they're just usually an idiot, I think they can still show hints of brilliance.

Anyway...to the point. I think gays are ruining X-mas and everything...everything that is good, holy, the American way. Have you seen the new women's shoe styles? Scare the **** of me! Gay design. They're also out to kill heterosexuality, but if they ever get me, I'll be fine...I've got a list.

Pilot...you'll never get on my list. Please stop PMing me requests!
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:08 PM   #26
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Where did I say that Jefferson wanted the US to be a religious state? As usual you are an idiot.
You said he was "proud", and I asked when he told you that.

Point out where he said he was "proud", cowpoke.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:57 PM   #27
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Who cares, you can celebrate anything you want at your house. No ones is gonna step in to your house and say "Guess what, Christmas is canceled this year."
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:13 PM   #28
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Who cares, you can celebrate anything you want at your house. No ones is gonna step in to your house and say "Guess what, Christmas is canceled this year."
That's not what Fox News says.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:25 PM   #29
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That blade cuts both ways.

Movies, TV, art, music, politics - all accepted means of promoting Christians.

Movies, TV, art, music, politics - all accepted means of evangelizing to non-Christians.

You can't run around telling everyone that your god is the one true god and if you dont accept that you'll be tortured for all eternity and then freak out when people who disagee do so publically and adamantly.

I agree that there shouldn't be different standards for criticism of any religion, but such is the modern state of things between the majority and various minorities. Maybe it's payback for the centuries when the opposite was true.




The govt should not be endorsing any religion.

1 - There is no need to use public spaces/resources to display religious materials. Those materials should be displayed at religious sites or private spaces.

2 - It's not practical to allow equal access to all religious views. Public spaces would be constantly used for the stuff, and some views would inevitably be marginalized because of the small number of their believers.

3 - The govt will inevitably be put in the position of judging the appropriateness of a religious view. Call it the Satan test. When Devil worshippers want to put up a display promoting sin, decadence and evil, will it be embraced and given the same treatment as everyone else? Or will they be treated differently based on the content of their message?

Minimizing govt involvement with religion is in everyone's best interest, especially the religions themselves.
The government doesn't endorse any religion. The government serves the will of the people. If the "people" want to put a christmas tree in a public area, they have the right. If they want a menorah, they have the right. Again, I am Jewish, and do not associate a christmas tree or the word christmas with a religion. It is just a commercial American holiday. THe majority of American people, irrespective of their religion like christmas and want christmas trees and such. The will of the people (the majority) must be respected.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:10 AM   #30
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The government doesn't endorse any religion. The government serves the will of the people. If the "people" want to put a christmas tree in a public area, they have the right. If they want a menorah, they have the right. Again, I am Jewish, and do not associate a christmas tree or the word christmas with a religion. It is just a commercial American holiday. THe majority of American people, irrespective of their religion like christmas and want christmas trees and such. The will of the people (the majority) must be respected.
The govt serves the will of the people as long as it does not violate the constitution. As long as the govt allows all religious representations, then there is no preferential treatment. However, this includes representations that are not mainstream. (aka the satanists argument).

Trees are easy for people to get around. They call them holiday trees or some other such non-specific designation.

It is the nativity scenes that are usually the biggest point of contention. They are clearly religious and of a specific religion. Not a problem, but, when other groups or individuals wish to use the same facilities for "pagan" scenes, it is usually the christian churches which are the most up in arms. Local govt has faced this problem. They picked the no use by any religious organization instead of use by any religious organization. The former is often less headache and drama than the latter.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:15 AM   #31
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The government doesn't endorse any religion. The government serves the will of the people. If the "people" want to put a christmas tree in a public area, they have the right. If they want a menorah, they have the right. Again, I am Jewish, and do not associate a christmas tree or the word christmas with a religion. It is just a commercial American holiday. THe majority of American people, irrespective of their religion like christmas and want christmas trees and such. The will of the people (the majority) must be respected.
The Constitution sets out a framework and basic rights that cannot be violated, majority or not. Its a credit to the wisdom of the writers that they realized the majority has a habit of imposing their will on the minority, so some rights and freedoms had to be enshrined and made unassailable.

The separation of church and state was seen as so important that its the first clause of the First Amendment. It, and many other fundamental rights, are not subject to majority rule SPECIFICALLY because the Constitution writers knew they had to be preserved for all people, not just the majority.

People like to use the phrase "it's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion." But govt, laws, public spaces and public resources must be kept separate from religion as much as possible. It's the only way to ensure no preferential treatment.

Now, when it comes to things like xmas trees, IMHO, they're far more cultural than religious. Christians didn't invent Christmas anyway, they just hijacked existing holidays, festivals and celebrations and turned them into what they needed them to be in order to promote their religion. No Bible verse says "thou shalt trim thine tree and kiss under thine mistletoe".

But as rdeseq pointed out so well, a nativity scene is blatantly Christian so it's not acceptable for govt space or resources to be used for one.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:19 AM   #32
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:51 AM   #33
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Lair is usually an idiot? Did not know that. Usually, idiots are idiots all the time. When they're just usually an idiot, I think they can still show hints of brilliance.

Anyway...to the point. I think gays are ruining X-mas and everything...everything that is good, holy, the American way. Have you seen the new women's shoe styles? Scare the **** of me! Gay design. They're also out to kill heterosexuality, but if they ever get me, I'll be fine...I've got a list.

Pilot...you'll never get on my list. Please stop PMing me requests!
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:47 AM   #34
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Here is the issue. We have religious TRADITIONS in this country that are getting swept under the rug by secularists.

I think it largely has to do with the educational system in this country and the fact that MOST textbooks twist the presentation of history to reflect this notion of a "separation of church and state" as a clearly defined founding principle... that simply ISN'T the case. Our nation was founded by Christian men who integrated religious practices into much of the tenants of law and legal practices... don't forget we had federally recognized state religions, prayers were said prior to congressional sessions, etc... In god we trust isn't just a line that somehow found itself on our currency.. Sure it wasn't there from the beginning of common law in this land.. but it's a result of the religious freedoms that were instituted by our founding fathers.

Now that we have established that religion WAS accepted by our founding fathers and early politicians, let's look at the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s... Christmas became a national event. Everywhere you went, christmas trees lined stores, merry christmas became a common saying from storekeepers, etc... It was a great way for the NATION to come together regardless of religion. Everyone acted just a little happier and looked out for one another just a bit more. Groups like Salvation Army would have their workers dressed as santa asking for donations to further aid to those who needed it.

And now today? My mother can't have a crucifix, tree, or santa on her desk out of fear that a student might complain that he feels discriminated against. Somehow merry christmas is offensive to those who don't believe in Christianity.. Ironically, jewish public schools teachers get away with menorah's in their classroom as that is somehow less offensive.. or is it really just that people don't feel the ability to openly attack Jews as they are a smaller chunk?

This is an attack on Christianity regardless of what Stewart or other pundits would have you believe. The goal is to remove religion from the public eye.. unless of course you're of a faith OTHER than Christian in which you're protected by this notion of "freedom of religion"...

The "attack on christianity" doesn't bug me.. but what does is this notion that the minority groups (whether it's muslims, blacks, jews, whatever) can get away with just about any negativity towards the majorities (whites, catholics, etc) and the majority groups are just supposed to sit back and take it (affirmative action for example).
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:56 AM   #35
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Here is the issue. We have religious TRADITIONS in this country that are getting swept under the rug by secularists.

I think it largely has to do with the educational system in this country and the fact that MOST textbooks twist the presentation of history to reflect this notion of a "separation of church and state" as a clearly defined founding principle... that simply ISN'T the case. Our nation was founded by Christian men who integrated religious practices into much of the tenants of law and legal practices... don't forget we had federally recognized state religions, prayers were said prior to congressional sessions, etc... In god we trust isn't just a line that somehow found itself on our currency.. Sure it wasn't there from the beginning of common law in this land.. but it's a result of the religious freedoms that were instituted by our founding fathers.

Now that we have established that religion WAS accepted by our founding fathers and early politicians, let's look at the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s... Christmas became a national event. Everywhere you went, christmas trees lined stores, merry christmas became a common saying from storekeepers, etc... It was a great way for the NATION to come together regardless of religion. Everyone acted just a little happier and looked out for one another just a bit more. Groups like Salvation Army would have their workers dressed as santa asking for donations to further aid to those who needed it.

And now today? My mother can't have a crucifix, tree, or santa on her desk out of fear that a student might complain that he feels discriminated against. Somehow merry christmas is offensive to those who don't believe in Christianity.. Ironically, jewish public schools teachers get away with menorah's in their classroom as that is somehow less offensive.. or is it really just that people don't feel the ability to openly attack Jews as they are a smaller chunk?

This is an attack on Christianity regardless of what Stewart or other pundits would have you believe. The goal is to remove religion from the public eye.. unless of course you're of a faith OTHER than Christian in which you're protected by this notion of "freedom of religion"...

The "attack on christianity" doesn't bug me.. but what does is this notion that the minority groups (whether it's muslims, blacks, jews, whatever) can get away with just about any negativity towards the majorities (whites, catholics, etc) and the majority groups are just supposed to sit back and take it (affirmative action for example).
It's worth reposing:





Your understanding of history is distorted. Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists. And as we all know, Deism is the belief that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a creator, accompanied with the rejection of revelation and authority as a source of religious knowledge. That's a common misconception propagated by Christian Revisionists. You, like many of the misguided, bought into it.

I am religious. But the difference between you an me is that you think religion should be the foundation for Governance. I for one favor the Constitution.

You constantly play the role of the victimized majority. I can only imagine how rough your life has been as a WASP.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:22 AM   #36
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The govt should not be endorsing any religion.

1 - There is no need to use public spaces/resources to display religious materials. Those materials should be displayed at religious sites or private spaces.

2 - It's not practical to allow equal access to all religious views. Public spaces would be constantly used for the stuff, and some views would inevitably be marginalized because of the small number of their believers.

3 - The govt will inevitably be put in the position of judging the appropriateness of a religious view. Call it the Satan test. When Devil worshippers want to put up a display promoting sin, decadence and evil, will it be embraced and given the same treatment as everyone else? Or will they be treated differently based on the content of their message?

Minimizing govt involvement with religion is in everyone's best interest, especially the religions themselves.
This.

I will fight to keep religious out of/off government properties and facilities with equal ardor to allow them on the church/temple/mosque/shrine next door to said government facility.

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The will of the people (the majority) must be respected.
Not necessarily this.
A way-overly simplistic interpretation of "democracy," conflating it with majoritarianism -- mob-rule if you will. One of the core principles of our democracy is the inviable right of the individual, often to be protected from the depradations of a majority. Our individual rights are not something conferred upon us by a grant from some majority but rather, are inherent to each one of us.

This psuedo "War on Christmas" is ridiculous on the face of it, as is the notion of trying to somehow erase Christmas from the public sphere. I'd challange anyone to even try to avoid Christmas for more than a minute, starting in about October, in that it has so saturated our public sphere, as any stroll through any shopping mall will show.

Again, I'll make the distinction between the broader public sphere and the more specific case of government facilities and institutions, i.e., the mall or church steps vs. the courthouse steps. Binding the public/government together with sacred and religious institutions has such a high risk of being corrupting of both that the wisest, most prudent strategy is to keep each other at arm's length of further.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:17 PM   #37
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Here is the issue. We have religious TRADITIONS in this country that are getting swept under the rug by secularists.
There's a difference between "swept under the rug" and "swept out of public spaces that need to be kept religion-free to the greatest extent possible".

No one is stating that churches, houses, synagogues, mosques, pagan fertility circles, American Indian shamans, etc aren't able to have whatever holiday displays they want.

Private businesses can embrace or distance themselves as they wish, based on company culture and what they feel they need to do for their customers and communities.

But my city hall, my court house, my police station and my tax dollars will not be used to promote religion.


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Originally Posted by 2000_328CI View Post
I think it largely has to do with the educational system in this country and the fact that MOST textbooks twist the presentation of history to reflect this notion of a "separation of church and state" as a clearly defined founding principle... that simply ISN'T the case. Our nation was founded by Christian men who integrated religious practices into much of the tenants of law and legal practices... don't forget we had federally recognized state religions, prayers were said prior to congressional sessions, etc... In god we trust isn't just a line that somehow found itself on our currency.. Sure it wasn't there from the beginning of common law in this land.. but it's a result of the religious freedoms that were instituted by our founding fathers.
The people that founded this country weren't wise enough to extend freedoms to all people. Women were 2nd class citizens not worthy of voting. American Indians were heathen savages that needed to be converted and/or driven from their lands. Blacks weren't even humans. If you weren't a white, land-owning, Protestant white adult male, they weren't building the country for you. Think they had Biblical justifications for all these points of view? Damn right they did.

What they WERE wise enough to realize was that they had a choice to make. They could institutionalize Protestantism into the US govt and make the oppressed into the oppressor, or they could create a US govt where no religion was institutionalized, so that all religious views would be safe as long as the country stood by that principle.

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Originally Posted by 2000_328CI View Post
Now that we have established that religion WAS accepted by our founding fathers and early politicians, let's look at the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s... Christmas became a national event. Everywhere you went, christmas trees lined stores, merry christmas became a common saying from storekeepers, etc... It was a great way for the NATION to come together regardless of religion. Everyone acted just a little happier and looked out for one another just a bit more. Groups like Salvation Army would have their workers dressed as santa asking for donations to further aid to those who needed it.

And now today? My mother can't have a crucifix, tree, or santa on her desk out of fear that a student might complain that he feels discriminated against. Somehow merry christmas is offensive to those who don't believe in Christianity.. Ironically, jewish public schools teachers get away with menorah's in their classroom as that is somehow less offensive.. or is it really just that people don't feel the ability to openly attack Jews as they are a smaller chunk?

This is an attack on Christianity regardless of what Stewart or other pundits would have you believe. The goal is to remove religion from the public eye.. unless of course you're of a faith OTHER than Christian in which you're protected by this notion of "freedom of religion"...

The "attack on christianity" doesn't bug me.. but what does is this notion that the minority groups (whether it's muslims, blacks, jews, whatever) can get away with just about any negativity towards the majorities (whites, catholics, etc) and the majority groups are just supposed to sit back and take it (affirmative action for example).
I am a pretty devout Atheist, and I love Christmas and smile when people wish me a Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays or Happy Kwanzaa. Hell, if someone wished me a Happy Hanukkah, I'd be too.

Christianity doesn't have the monopoly on good cheer, being thankful for making it through another year, the winter solstice, being nicer to each other because the winter weather means we're all stuck indoors with each other for more hours a day, the excitement of the coming year, showing gratitude and love to each other with special meals/time together/gift giving, etc. So I have no problem with exuberant Christmas celebrations. The religious aspects of it are simply as meaningless to me as they've always been to the billions of people that have lived on this Earth that held winter celebrations for the zillions of reasons that have nothing to do with the alleged birth of one religion's key figure.

However, I am a pretty devout Atheist and I'm fortunate and proud to live in a country whose govt IS secular, will NOT show preferential treatment to any religion, and will not devote resources to endorsing any religion.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:22 PM   #38
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:39 PM   #39
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When the government legislates what religious symbols/messages/etc can be publicly displayed on non-government property (including government employees not acting on behalf of the government) then I'll buy into the whole "war on religion" nonsense. Until then, the overwhelming majority of this country is still free to display whatever religious messages/symbols/etc that the owners of the property desire to do so within legal limits (i.e. get your building permits for your 250ft cross in your front yard if that is your desire).

Why are all of the churches, all of the private businesses, and all of the private land insufficient space for the religious to display/promote/endorse/whatever their religious beliefs?
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:57 PM   #40
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Here is the issue. We have religious TRADITIONS in this country that are getting swept under the rug by secularists.
While I agree that we have religious time honored traditions in this country - mostly Christian, where I don't agree is that the Govt should not be seen as promoting one or the other. Can you imagine the uproar if, for example, they put a Crescent Moon (or other Islamic symbol) on a US Govt building to celebrate an Islamic holiday? The bible belt in this country would flip.

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Originally Posted by 2000_328CI
This is an attack on Christianity regardless of what Stewart or other pundits would have you believe. The goal is to remove religion from the public eye.. unless of course you're of a faith OTHER than Christian in which you're protected by this notion of "freedom of religion"...
Really? Because I certainly don't see any holy wars or crusades on going in my neighborhood. I think this "war on Christianity" is an alarmist and cry wolf tactic by far leaning conservatives as another means to further their agenda and promote intolerance.

Also, I find it sad to see politicians (recent example is Romney) touting Christian religious principles to score political points to connect with voters. So I think it's the other way around where you have a lot of places in this country that fear "the Muslims, the Jews, etc" b/c the idea is foreign to them. You even have people in this country saying "Get that Muslim President out of office...we're a Christian nation" - more or less. Even Barack's middle name, Hussein, was alien sounding to some Americans and they used it as a platform to voice their opinions against him.

Another example is the Sikh killings in Wisconsin. They were targeted by white extremists who carry the same fear. Except they were too stupid and ignorant that they didn't realize that being a Sikh is not the same thing as being a Muslim.


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Our nation was founded by Christian men who integrated religious practices into much of the tenants of law and legal practices...
Some were Christian, other founding fathers were Deists, or had Deist influence such as Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and Ethan Allen.

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Originally Posted by 2000_328CI
The "attack on christianity" doesn't bug me.. but what does is this notion that the minority groups (whether it's muslims, blacks, jews, whatever) can get away with just about any negativity towards the majorities (whites, catholics, etc) and the majority groups are just supposed to sit back and take it (affirmative action for example).
Aren't whites in this country slowly becoming the minority? Secondly, you don't think it's mostly the other way around?


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Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
There's a difference between "swept under the rug" and "swept out of public spaces that need to be kept religion-free to the greatest extent possible"..
This

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