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Old 12-11-2012, 01:30 PM   #41
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Worst case, this law is a waste of paper, since again, the union isn't going anywhere.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:35 PM   #42
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I believe it works because it attracts industries that would not necessarily be interested in big union states like Michigan, New York or Indiana.

BMW has a manufacturing facility in South Carolina and Boeing recently announced that they were building an assembly plant there. Do you think that having a RTW law had anything to do with it ? I bet it did. Sure, the economic incentives the state threw in were a bonus, but I am confident the RTW law had an impact as well.
It certainly has an impact. The extend of the impact is debatable. Don't let my skepticism convince you that I am opponent of RTW. I for one think it will do Michigan wonders.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:36 PM   #43
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It certainly has an impact. The extend of the impact is debatable. Don't let my skepticism convince you that I am opponent of RTW. I for one think it will do Michigan wonders.
They're going to compete with texas for highest number of minumum wage, part-time jobs?
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:47 PM   #44
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They're going to compete with texas for highest number of minumum wage, part-time jobs?
As I stated in another thread:

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It's going to disincentivize the formation of unions. Would you want to pay dues to an organization to receive its benefits when others do not? And with less money and less exclusivity comes a degradation in their leverage.

I would expect more business coming to the Detroit area in my industry given the close proximity to OEM's because there isn't that fear of unionization and some of the hurdles that come with it.

I see competition increasing. Better wages for employees. And hopefully lower prices for the end user.

It pays to have a happy, skilled and consistent workforce. They'll lose their talent if they pay minimum wage to a competitor. Plus the less dues they pay the more money in their pockets. When all is said and done RTW states tend to pay their workers better because they actually get to keep what they earn (minus the typically taxing associated with income).

And considering the economic incentives to open up shop in Michigan without the fear of a union costing a company a fortune, it will draw more business to the area.

More business means more competition. And more competition means better wages.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:35 PM   #45
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I completely respect the right of workers to organize themselves to keep the best possible working conditions for themselves, but a worker should not be forced to pay money to belong to the organization if they don't want to be a part of it.
I don't disagree. I don't believe anybody should be forced to join a union. However, I also don't believe they are the scapegoats that they are often made out to be.

I also believe workers still need to be protected from exploitation by mgmt. Corporations need to be "kept honest" about worker safety, reasonable wages, etc. Take the tech sector...when did they do something about ergonomics in the workplace? When they were threatened with court action for unsafe work place practices. No not all of this came about because of unions, but, it demonstrates that corporations will do little for worker safety when it costs $$$ unless their hand is forced to do so.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:57 PM   #46
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They're going to compete with texas for highest number of minumum wage, part-time jobs?
What good is a union protected 25 dollar an hour job when they aren't any available ?

There must be a very good reason that auto jobs have left Detroit along with the people. The only thing left is the unemployed, vacant homes and gang bangers.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:14 AM   #47
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The Lansing-Beijing connection

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...532_story.html

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Defenders of right-to-work laws argue that they improve a state’s economy by creating more jobs. But an exhaustive study by economist Lonnie K. Stevans of Hofstra University found that states that have enacted such laws reported no increase in business start-ups or rates of employment. Wages and personal income are lower in those states than in those without such laws, Stevans concluded, though proprietors’ incomes are higher. In short, right-to-work laws simply redistribute income from workers to owners.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:06 AM   #48
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They're going to compete with texas for highest number of minumum wage, part-time jobs?
If people continue to be delusional that they will be paid far above the standard pay for a job with little to no experience at the expense of the consumers, tax payers and the very hand that feeds them, yes. UAW suffocated Detroit.

It is unfortunate because unions could have a place in the workforce, however their over reach, greed, thuggery and sheer hatred toward the very corporation that employs them destroyed any chance of their survival. Simply put, people are fvcking tired of their sh!t.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:09 AM   #49
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If people continue to be delusional that they will be paid far above the standard pay for a job with little to no experience at the expense of the consumers, tax payers and the very hand that feeds them, yes. UAW suffocated Detroit.

It is unfortunate because unions could have a place in the workforce, however their over reach, greed, thuggery and sheer hatred toward the very corporation that employs them destroyed any chance of their survival. Simply put, people are fvcking tired of their sh!t.
Nicely put
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:35 AM   #50
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I'd like to see the below chart also fleshed out with additional stats like average income, and other income, remuneration and benefits stats to get a fuller picture (not knowing whether that would favor or argue against RTW).

As noted, there are some non-RTW state up in the top tiers and would argue that many of these states have much higher living standards too. Also, as noted, there are some RTW states scrapping the bottom here and some of those are also at the bottom in regards to living standards.

Yeah, there might be lower unemployment, but they may also be getting low wages with schitty benefits and terrible working conditions.

Again, a bit more data needed to draw any real conclusions one way or the other.

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Rank State Unemployment rate / Right to work states in bold
It seems to be working.
Michigan recently voted it in.........

1 NORTH DAKOTA 3.1%
2 NEBRASKA 3.8%
3 SOUTH DAKOTA 4.5%
4 IOWA 5.1%
5 UTAH 5.2%
6 WYOMING 5.2%
7 OKLAHOMA 5.3%
8 HAWAII 5.5%
9 VERMONT 5.5%
10 KANSAS 5.7%
11 NEW HAMPSHIRE 5.7%
12 VIRGINIA 5.7%
13 MINNESOTA 5.8%
14 MONTANA 6%
15 NEW MEXICO 6.3%
16 LOUISIANA 6.6%
17 MASSACHUSETTS 6.6%
18 TEXAS 6.6%
19 MARYLAND 6.7%
20 DELAWARE 6.8%
21 MISSOURI 6.9%
22 OHIO 6.9%
23 WISCONSIN 6.9%
24 IDAHO 7%
25 ALASKA 7.1%
26 ARKANSAS 7.2%



27 MAINE 7.4%
28 WEST VIRGINIA 7.5%
29 COLORADO 7.9%
30 INDIANA 8%
31 ALABAMA 8.1%
32 ARIZONA 8.1%
33 PENNSYLVANIA 8.1%
34 TENNESSEE 8.2%
35 WASHINGTON 8.2%
36 KENTUCKY 8.4%
37 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 8.5%
38 FLORIDA 8.5%
39 OREGON 8.6%
40 SOUTH CAROLINA 8.6%
41 GEORGIA 8.7%
42 NEW YORK 8.7%
43 ILLINOIS 8.8%
44 MISSISSIPPI 8.9%
45 CONNECTICUT 9%
46 MICHIGAN 9.1%
47 NORTH CAROLINA 9.3%
48 NEW JERSEY 9.7%
49 CALIFORNIA 10.1%
50 RHODE ISLAND 10.4%
51 NEVADA 11.5%

The following states are right-to-work states:

Alabama
Arizona ***8224;
Arkansas ***8224;
Florida ***8224;
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana[30]
Iowa
Kansas ***8224;
Louisiana
Michigan[31]
Mississippi ***8224;
Nebraska ***8224;***8224;
Nevada
North Carolina
North Dakota
Oklahoma ***8224;
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Virginia
Wyoming

Last edited by Rhumb; 12-12-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:28 PM   #51
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If people continue to be delusional that they will be paid far above the standard pay for a job with little to no experience at the expense of the consumers, tax payers and the very hand that feeds them, yes. UAW suffocated Detroit.
The UAW didn't suffocate Detroit. GM management and their bean counter-designed rolling piles of crap suffocated Detroit.

Nobody whined about unions when GM was netting $7K on each bloated, hideous, gas sucking SUV it produced. Now *suddenly* the unions are the problem. Give me a fvcking break.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.

Last edited by Lair; 12-12-2012 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:45 AM   #52
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The UAW didn't suffocate Detroit. GM management and their bean counter-designed rolling piles of crap suffocated Detroit.

Nobody whined about unions when GM was netting $7K on each bloated, hideous, gas sucking SUV it produced. Now *suddenly* the unions are the problem. Give me a fvcking break.
Chill out and get with the times. Deal with it.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:58 AM   #53
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Word.

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Chill out and get with the times. Deal with it.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:02 AM   #54
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Unions truly used to be vital. However now they are a major downfall, for everyone.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:18 AM   #55
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The UAW didn't suffocate Detroit. GM management and their bean counter-designed rolling piles of crap suffocated Detroit.

Nobody whined about unions when GM was netting $7K on each bloated, hideous, gas sucking SUV it produced. Now *suddenly* the unions are the problem. Give me a fvcking break.
unions are good at getting people who drink and get high on their lunch break their jobs back.

nobody was bitch!ng about money grubbing ceo's when everybody had a job , money to spend to buy a house (even people who had no business buying a house). now *suddenly* ceo's are the problem. give me a fvcking break
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:33 AM   #56
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Who's running the companies that *suddenly* can't afford to pay its workers a living wage while they pay millions in bonuses to the upper echelon?

Hint: It isn't the union.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:54 AM   #57
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Who's running the companies that *suddenly* can't afford to pay its workers a living wage while they pay millions in bonuses to the upper echelon?

Hint: It isn't the union.
http://nlpc.org/union-corruption-update
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:54 AM   #58
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Who's running the companies that *suddenly* can't afford to pay its workers a living wage while they pay millions in bonuses to the upper echelon?

Hint: It isn't the union.
Those same companies just gave me a nice Christmas bonus and I'm only an engineer. When you can deflate your idiotic idea of how evil corporations are then come talk. Until then continue to waste your breath.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:19 AM   #59
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Nice. So you work for GM?
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:22 AM   #60
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Nice. So you work for GM?
Maybe
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