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Old 12-18-2012, 08:18 AM   #21
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Remove the tax benefit/social services benefit for anything over 2 or 3 kids and I bet we'll see a lot fewer people having kids. However, no one would probably go for that because it could put a serious negative impact on innocent kids.

Edit: Reed.....
I could only wish. Nothing angers me more than to mistreat or neglect an innocent child. I believe all children should have the same opportunities from a young age to discover their talents and hopefully become successful.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:36 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
Our culture has a lot of issues. A good book to read is Terror at Beslan by John Giduck, or pretty much any book written by
LTC David Grossman, with particular attention to the book Stop Teaching our Kids to Kill.
We are essentially conditioning our children to be apathetic and indifferent to everything, including violence. We glorify violence in pretty much every aspect of media, from TV and movies to video games and internet videos.

With particular reference to the mentally ill, we have a lot more recognizable mental illness now. This is exacerbated by medication and self-medication issues, of course. However, this issue is also made worse by the media that is available. You take someone who is already experiencing an extreme schizo-affective disorder, narcissism or outright schizophrenia, and you show them TV shows like Doomsday Preppers, or the myriad of shows about the end of the Mayan calendar, and now you've basically poked and prodded someone already on the edge and pushed them over that edge.

Look into the ghettos or "urban" communities where kids are taught from a very young age that materialism is the most important thing in the world, and that nobody will respect you if you don't have money, bling and a hot ride. These are kids who, if asked what they want to do when they grow up, will either say they want to be a pro athlete or a rapper. Nobody wants to be a doctor, lawyer, pilot or train engineer. They are inundated with influence from the only thing they see, which is the "urban" culture that glorifies irresponsibility, materialism and violence. Their role models are generally gang bangers who teach these kids that respect is earned through violence, killing, dealing drugs and disprespecting women.

Next, go to suburbia where kids are glued every waking hour to their Xbox360 or PS3. These kids will literally go up to a combat veteran and tell the vet all about war, just because they've played Call of Duty. They watch actual war footage on YouTube and all they do is go "COOL!" Completely desensitized to violence.

Or, take any kid aged 12-19, and look at how every aspect of their life is inertwined with Facebook and Twitter. The term "cyber-bullying" had to be invented to describe the amount of emotional anguish kids are experiencing because people talk crap about them online.

We have messed up laws and a legal system that is designed to prevent people from being held accountable for their actions. There are felons who have been arrested multiple times for possessing a firearm (felony in every state) that keep getting put on probation, likely followed by double-secret probation. Over and over. Yet, a law abiding citizen who neglects to pay a $200 tax fee so that they can take 1.5" off the length of a rifle barrel will face 5-10 years in federal prison. Data privacy laws protect sex offenders, as most sex offenders are not assigned risk levels (Level 1, 2 or 3), so most of their neighbors don't know they're convicted sex offenders. Etc etc etc.

We have a significant problem in this country, and so much of it is based around people who simply have no incentive to take responsibility for their own actions. All we do in this country is try to find ways to explain or justify things, and find ways to eliminate capabilities. Look at prisons- they're "rehabilitation" facilities. Prison is where you send someone to be contained because they cannot function responsibly in society, but we try and soften that because we don't want to treat criminals like criminals.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:42 AM   #23
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Chase in case you haven't realized, there are people out there who do a shitty job at parenting. Look at all the bafoons who pop kids out just to profit off of them yet take no part in raising them properly to become productive citizens. Perhaps a certain percentage of the money the government is handing these people should be used on proper education for parents to raise and stimulate children positively.
I realize there are tons of crappy parents.. but there is NO way a parent like the one you described is going to benefit from a "training class". It will just suck up resources and throw more money down the drain trying to benefit scumbags.
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Originally Posted by evolved View Post
Remove the tax benefit/social services benefit for anything over 2 or 3 kids and I bet we'll see a lot fewer people having kids. However, no one would probably go for that because it could put a serious negative impact on innocent kids.

Edit: Reed.....
I stand behind this 100%. Hell, remove the tax benefits for ALL kids. Make those that have multiple kids pay MORE for them. There is no justification for an inner city family getting MORE money from the government for popping out MORE children that they can't already afford. It's preposterous.

Look at the 50s, 60s, and 70s... middle class families had plenty of kids that they could afford to care for. Look at today. Middle class families have mayyyybe two or three kids, upper class families have mayyybe one or two... lower class families? 5 or 6! The socioeconomic realities of our birth rates are NOT healthy nor sustainable.. especially when we couple them with a society that believes the rich (which are shrinking) should pay for all those below them (which is growing exponentially).
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:48 AM   #24
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I realize there are tons of crappy parents.. but there is NO way a parent like the one you described is going to benefit from a "training class". It will just suck up resources and throw more money down the drain trying to benefit scumbags.

I stand behind this 100%. Hell, remove the tax benefits for ALL kids. Make those that have multiple kids pay MORE for them. There is no justification for an inner city family getting MORE money from the government for popping out MORE children that they can't already afford. It's preposterous.

Look at the 50s, 60s, and 70s... middle class families had plenty of kids that they could afford to care for. Look at today. Middle class families have mayyyybe two or three kids, upper class families have mayyybe one or two... lower class families? 5 or 6! The socioeconomic realities of our birth rates are NOT healthy nor sustainable.. especially when we couple them with a society that believes the rich (which are shrinking) should pay for all those below them (which is growing exponentially).
While I agree with all of this the intention of my last post was what to do with the children that have been currently born to crappy parents? Obviously we need to put our foot down and say enough is enough for future births.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:10 AM   #25
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We were discussing this at work yesterday and someone made a good point - the increasing violence is a result of a lot of our own social actions and outlooks. While I personally think that stricter gun control measures should be a part of the solution to averting tragedies like Sandy Hook, I also agree that we as individuals play an important role in teaching our kids and youngsters the values of tolerance, respect, groundedness and social etiquette. We also have a role in keeping our kids happy, which I think a lot of parents these days are overlooking because of other pressures. Somewhere the family system and friends looking out for friends has fallen by the wayside. We also have this ever-permeating Hollywood culture that glorifies killing and violence like never before, and gory video games that kids freely access. A lot of those things have to change, and a sweeping social change is in order to reduce and eliminate acts of violence in this country.

I don't think the government has a role or should have a role in enforcing social change, however, they should set policies and actions to promote social well being and encourage individual responsibility... For example, I think there could be stricter controls on what comes out of Holloywood, and what's rated suitable for kids - that's something the government can enforce. Increasing entitlements beyond a limit is not useful, and is a tricky subject, since entitlements should be targeted for people that deserve or need them - that's a very broad and deep topic in itself.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:24 PM   #26
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Imagine the political battles that would happen if someone wanted to implement parenting classes as part of standard curriculum
LOL, wonder what the intelligent design "scientists" would come up with for something so intangible as good parenting.

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Originally Posted by evolved View Post
Remove the tax benefit/social services benefit for anything over 2 or 3 kids and I bet we'll see a lot fewer people having kids. However, no one would probably go for that because it could put a serious negative impact on innocent kids.
Yeah, when Jack and Jill get stumbling drunk and want to skronk, the FIRST thing they're gonna think about is their 1040EZ next spring.

I'm as frustrated as anyone by all the breaks/benefits we give to breeders, and the abuse of those breaks/benefits by hyperbreeders.

But when Jack and Jill are horny, the financial consequences are unlikely to be at the front of their minds when they're making the decision to bone at all vs bone without birth control vs bone with birth control.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:19 PM   #27
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We were discussing this at work yesterday and someone made a good point - the increasing violence is a result of a lot of our own social actions and outlooks. While I personally think that stricter gun control measures should be a part of the solution to averting tragedies like Sandy Hook, I also agree that we as individuals play an important role in teaching our kids and youngsters the values of tolerance, respect, groundedness and social etiquette. We also have a role in keeping our kids happy, which I think a lot of parents these days are overlooking because of other pressures. Somewhere the family system and friends looking out for friends has fallen by the wayside. We also have this ever-permeating Hollywood culture that glorifies killing and violence like never before, and gory video games that kids freely access. A lot of those things have to change, and a sweeping social change is in order to reduce and eliminate acts of violence in this country.

I don't think the government has a role or should have a role in enforcing social change, however, they should set policies and actions to promote social well being and encourage individual responsibility... For example, I think there could be stricter controls on what comes out of Holloywood, and what's rated suitable for kids - that's something the government can enforce. Increasing entitlements beyond a limit is not useful, and is a tricky subject, since entitlements should be targeted for people that deserve or need them - that's a very broad and deep topic in itself.
Whilst I agree 100% with what your idea proposes, how do we get this going? Which politician or law-maker will enforce a law/policy like this? The entire future generation is mixed up in all of this... by taking away their favourite video games or movies, where are they going to avenge their anger/energy now? The streets?

We need more pre-youth and youth groups that focus on bringing out the best in these kids. Doesn't have to be Church or religion related, just something that has a foundation in morals and ethics, and lets them build on that.

My 2c

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Old 12-19-2012, 06:38 PM   #28
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Whilst I agree 100% with what your idea proposes, how do we get this going? Which politician or law-maker will enforce a law/policy like this? The entire future generation is mixed up in all of this... by taking away their favourite video games or movies, where are they going to avenge their anger/energy now? The streets?

We need more pre-youth and youth groups that focus on bringing out the best in these kids. Doesn't have to be Church or religion related, just something that has a foundation in morals and ethics, and lets them build on that.

My 2c
I always try to encourage young kids when I interact with them. But I agree, society as a whole needs to take part in the effort.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:54 PM   #29
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I've been noticing random shootings, countless life's taken, and I don't know why. We had a guy come to Walgreens only to jump in the pharmacy, swallow a bottle of Vicodin and then blow his head off. Then there's the recent San Antonio shooting. There's so many and it's getting out hand. I feel like buying a bat and keeping it in my trunk. Is your family safe?
WTF is a bat going to do?

Hey....wait strange crazy man trying to rob me...I have to get something from my trunk.

Get a pistol and learn how to use it.

Yes, I know guns are icky but its much more effective and much easier emotionally to shoot somebody than it is to bash there brains in with a bat, killing with a blunt weapon is a much more personal experiance than just pulling a trigger.

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Old 12-19-2012, 08:57 PM   #30
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WTF is a bat going to do?

Hey....wait strange crazy man trying to rob me...I have to get something from my trunk.

Get a pistol and learn how to use it.

Yes, I know guns are icky but its much more effective and much easier emotionally to shoot somebody than it is to bash there brains in with a bat, killing with a blunt weapon is a much more personal experiance than just pulling a trigger.
lol @ using a bat. He's better off with throwing a knife.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:59 PM   #31
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We were discussing this at work yesterday and someone made a good point - the increasing violence is a result of a lot of our own social actions and outlooks. While I personally think that stricter gun control measures should be a part of the solution to averting tragedies like Sandy Hook, I also agree that we as individuals play an important role in teaching our kids and youngsters the values of tolerance, respect, groundedness and social etiquette. We also have a role in keeping our kids happy, which I think a lot of parents these days are overlooking because of other pressures. Somewhere the family system and friends looking out for friends has fallen by the wayside. We also have this ever-permeating Hollywood culture that glorifies killing and violence like never before, and gory video games that kids freely access. A lot of those things have to change, and a sweeping social change is in order to reduce and eliminate acts of violence in this country.

I don't think the government has a role or should have a role in enforcing social change, however, they should set policies and actions to promote social well being and encourage individual responsibility... For example, I think there could be stricter controls on what comes out of Holloywood, and what's rated suitable for kids - that's something the government can enforce. Increasing entitlements beyond a limit is not useful, and is a tricky subject, since entitlements should be targeted for people that deserve or need them - that's a very broad and deep topic in itself.
How in the world is sticter gun control going to stop anything?

The government should not set policies to promote social well being. Your treading in to communist territory. I personally am dead set against any welfair for the poor. I believe these people should be forced to work for what they have. We did it once with the new deal and programs like the TVA and we could do it again.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:12 PM   #32
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lol @ using a bat. He's better off with throwing a knife.
Not really, a bat could be usefull but you have to have quick access to it and you have to be prepaired to kill. You cant just hit somebody once or twice and say "Give up yet?" You beat the worthless pos until he cant lift his head.

I've been in 3 attempted robberies in my life, two were before I found the usefullness of a handgun. One, somebody tried to get in my car but the door was locked and he "dove" inside my window, I stepped on the gas and drug him a ways with his body hanging halfway out my window. He got away before I could find a pole to hit. Rolled a few times and ran off like a shot.

The second time I was setting at a light near the mall, a homeless looking man grabbed my unlocked door. At this time I did not carry a gun, I did however keep a sawed off baseball bat/billy club next to my seat. He pulled me out of the car and threw me in to the street, I bairly and I do mean bairly grabbed that bat. I caught him right in the teeth, stepped over his limp bleeding body and drove off.

Funny thing, a couple days later I washing some blood splatter off my car and I found a gold capped tooth laying on my cowl..... Still got it setting on my desk infront of me.

The third time, a bum outside of a store cought me by the arm after I refused to give him my change. Once he got physical I took several steps back and drew my .45.... That was the last I saw of him as he rounded the corner.

This world aint no fairy tail, it ****ing sucks....either you do nothing or you do everything you can to protect you and your family. Putting a short bat in a reachable place is better than nothing BUT you have to understand that its not a end all solution. Since you dont sound like much of a fighter you have to expect that it may get taken from you and you may get beaten and/or killed with it.

I suggest getting a small friendly revolver, something like a J frame. Very user friendly, very safe, very easy to lean on. You may never need it but if you do atleast you have something...
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:55 AM   #33
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I have a few firearms; I just don't carry. I have a .45 1911, Glock 17 4th gen, and a 12 gauge mossberg, but don't plan having them in my trunk.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
Our culture has a lot of issues. A good book to read is Terror at Beslan by John Giduck, or pretty much any book written by
LTC David Grossman, with particular attention to the book Stop Teaching our Kids to Kill.
We are essentially conditioning our children to be apathetic and indifferent to everything, including violence. We glorify violence in pretty much every aspect of media, from TV and movies to video games and internet videos.

With particular reference to the mentally ill, we have a lot more recognizable mental illness now. This is exacerbated by medication and self-medication issues, of course. However, this issue is also made worse by the media that is available. You take someone who is already experiencing an extreme schizo-affective disorder, narcissism or outright schizophrenia, and you show them TV shows like Doomsday Preppers, or the myriad of shows about the end of the Mayan calendar, and now you've basically poked and prodded someone already on the edge and pushed them over that edge.

Look into the ghettos or "urban" communities where kids are taught from a very young age that materialism is the most important thing in the world, and that nobody will respect you if you don't have money, bling and a hot ride. These are kids who, if asked what they want to do when they grow up, will either say they want to be a pro athlete or a rapper. Nobody wants to be a doctor, lawyer, pilot or train engineer. They are inundated with influence from the only thing they see, which is the "urban" culture that glorifies irresponsibility, materialism and violence. Their role models are generally gang bangers who teach these kids that respect is earned through violence, killing, dealing drugs and disprespecting women.

Next, go to suburbia where kids are glued every waking hour to their Xbox360 or PS3. These kids will literally go up to a combat veteran and tell the vet all about war, just because they've played Call of Duty. They watch actual war footage on YouTube and all they do is go "COOL!" Completely desensitized to violence.

Or, take any kid aged 12-19, and look at how every aspect of their life is inertwined with Facebook and Twitter. The term "cyber-bullying" had to be invented to describe the amount of emotional anguish kids are experiencing because people talk crap about them online.

We have messed up laws and a legal system that is designed to prevent people from being held accountable for their actions. There are felons who have been arrested multiple times for possessing a firearm (felony in every state) that keep getting put on probation, likely followed by double-secret probation. Over and over. Yet, a law abiding citizen who neglects to pay a $200 tax fee so that they can take 1.5" off the length of a rifle barrel will face 5-10 years in federal prison. Data privacy laws protect sex offenders, as most sex offenders are not assigned risk levels (Level 1, 2 or 3), so most of their neighbors don't know they're convicted sex offenders. Etc etc etc.

We have a significant problem in this country, and so much of it is based around people who simply have no incentive to take responsibility for their own actions. All we do in this country is try to find ways to explain or justify things, and find ways to eliminate capabilities. Look at prisons- they're "rehabilitation" facilities. Prison is where you send someone to be contained because they cannot function responsibly in society, but we try and soften that because we don't want to treat criminals like criminals.
I agree, well said.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:04 PM   #35
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I've been noticing random shootings, countless life's taken, and I don't know why. We had a guy come to Walgreens only to jump in the pharmacy, swallow a bottle of Vicodin and then blow his head off. Then there's the recent San Antonio shooting. There's so many and it's getting out hand. I feel like buying a bat and keeping it in my trunk. Is your family safe?
On the bright side, think about how many fewer homosexual cannibal serial killers there are now vs last century.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:04 PM   #36
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I'm curious how much tax benefits someone could get from having a bunch of kids. I thought kids cost a lot of money, to clothe, feed, take care of, etc. Do those low income families who have more kids for the tax breaks actually get more money than what the kid costs? Or do they just completely neglect the kid.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:08 PM   #37
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A lot of people have lost hope. You buy into the negative media too much and you'll think the sky is falling. I have friends that I felt like I was talking off a cliff after Obama was re-elected. They buy into the media and believe the whole world is falling apart around them. I on the other hand take everything with a grain of salt and couldn't be happier for it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:46 PM   #38
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I'm curious how much tax benefits someone could get from having a bunch of kids. I thought kids cost a lot of money, to clothe, feed, take care of, etc. Do those low income families who have more kids for the tax breaks actually get more money than what the kid costs? Or do they just completely neglect the kid.
It's more complex than tax benefits. The Bush Tax Cuts ironically exempted more poor people from paying income taxes in part based on the # of kids they have.

The biggest factor IMHO is the benefits set up to encourage women to remain single and have children with multiple fathers, as long as they're ok living a modest lifestyle. I understand why the programs are structured like that from a sociological perspective, but it's also created a whole subculture that feeds on itself.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:45 PM   #39
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A lot of people have lost hope. You buy into the negative media too much and you'll think the sky is falling. I have friends that I felt like I was talking off a cliff after Obama was re-elected. They buy into the media and believe the whole world is falling apart around them. I on the other hand take everything with a grain of salt and couldn't be happier for it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
Exactly the reason why I keep asking my mother to stop watching the 6pm news as she buys into everything she reads or hears. Damn you mutli-billion dollar business "news" companies...
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