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Old 01-03-2013, 02:53 PM   #21
Rhumb
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Obviously (to most anyways), I wrote with more than a little irony and rhetorical exaggeration (I did read somewhere that many conservatives have a bit of trouble comprehending ironic humor, being too literal or serious or something), though to touch on some very real points such as: many in the GOP continuing to consider Obama as some alien, usurping "other," and that the GOP has been reduced to basically putting a gun to the head of the U.S. economy and the financial interests of most voters to try to get the fiscal policies they prefer. Interesting that the markets should seem to endorse the essentially Democratic fiscal package to avert the Fiscal Cliff.

That Obama and the Dems didn't roll over so compliantly as in past rounds of fiscal Russian Roulette but stood their ground and reflected the sentiments expressed by the majority of Americans via the last election and in many polls seems to have many of their panties in a bunch -- beyond that very fact that he was soundly re-elected along with increasing numbers of Dems in 2012 in the first place that is.

The meta picture is that recent and current GOP policies and approaches to a wide range of issues, fiscal and monetary included, are in decline as well evidenced by many polls and especially the 2012 elections among many other measures. The internecine warfare that we're now increasingly witnessing in the GOP is but symptomatic of the collapse of the "conservative" consensus, such as there was one, of the past 30 years or so.

Supply-side, trickle-down, coddle the rich economics is quickly becoming discredited not only by such things as the 2007-08 economic collapse but by stagnant of falling wages and wealth for most Americans outside the most rarefied of financial strata, who are the very few who have actually thrived significantly in the past three decades.

Thus, that the GOP approach to our fiscal problems should be so repudiated not only by the 2012 elections, most polls and this recent fiscal package vote ought not to be surprising, even if a bit dismaying to many Republicans, especially the Tea Party faction.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
Obviously (to most anyways), I wrote with more than a little irony and rhetorical exaggeration (I did read somewhere that many conservatives have a bit of trouble comprehending ironic humor, being too literal or serious or something), though to touch on some very real points such as: many in the GOP continuing to consider Obama as some alien, usurping "other," and that the GOP has been reduced to basically putting a gun to the head of the U.S. economy and the financial interests of most voters to try to get the fiscal policies they prefer. Interesting that the markets should seem to endorse the essentially Democratic fiscal package to avert the Fiscal Cliff.

That Obama and the Dems didn't roll over so compliantly as in past rounds of fiscal Russian Roulette but stood their ground and reflected the sentiments expressed by the majority of Americans via the last election and in many polls seems to have many of their panties in a bunch -- beyond that very fact that he was soundly re-elected along with increasing numbers of Dems in 2012 in the first place that is.

The meta picture is that recent and current GOP policies and approaches to a wide range of issues, fiscal and monetary included, are in decline as well evidenced by many polls and especially the 2012 elections among many other measures. The internecine warfare that we're now increasingly witnessing in the GOP is but symptomatic of the collapse of the "conservative" consensus, such as there was one, of the past 30 years or so.

Supply-side, trickle-down, coddle the rich economics is quickly becoming discredited not only by such things as the 2007-08 economic collapse but by stagnant of falling wages and wealth for most Americans outside the most rarefied of financial strata, who are the very few who have actually thrived significantly in the past three decades.

Thus, that the GOP approach to our fiscal problems should be so repudiated not only by the 2012 elections, most polls and this recent fiscal package vote ought not to be surprising, even if a bit dismaying to many Republicans, especially the Tea Party faction.
Damn conservatives. Thankfully I'm independent.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:58 PM   #23
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Damn just saw that.

I blame my phone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah..
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:11 PM   #24
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Yeah, yeah, yeah..
I can assure you I don't make many grammatical mistakes on my own.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:36 PM   #25
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Damn just saw that.

I blame my phone.
My fone also phucked me.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:48 PM   #26
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My fone also phucked me.
Phones can't fvck. Please don't explain how you might have used your phone.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:55 PM   #27
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I didn't say it fvcked me.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:55 PM   #28
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I can assure you I don't make many grammatical mistakes on my own.
Doesn't matter either way, it's just a joke.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:55 PM   #29
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Obviously (to most anyways), I wrote with more than a little irony and rhetorical exaggeration (I did read somewhere that many conservatives have a bit of trouble comprehending ironic humor, being too literal or serious or something), though to touch on some very real points such as: many in the GOP continuing to consider Obama as some alien, usurping "other," and that the GOP has been reduced to basically putting a gun to the head of the U.S. economy and the financial interests of most voters to try to get the fiscal policies they prefer. Interesting that the markets should seem to endorse the essentially Democratic fiscal package to avert the Fiscal Cliff.

That Obama and the Dems didn't roll over so compliantly as in past rounds of fiscal Russian Roulette but stood their ground and reflected the sentiments expressed by the majority of Americans via the last election and in many polls seems to have many of their panties in a bunch -- beyond that very fact that he was soundly re-elected along with increasing numbers of Dems in 2012 in the first place that is.

The meta picture is that recent and current GOP policies and approaches to a wide range of issues, fiscal and monetary included, are in decline as well evidenced by many polls and especially the 2012 elections among many other measures. The internecine warfare that we're now increasingly witnessing in the GOP is but symptomatic of the collapse of the "conservative" consensus, such as there was one, of the past 30 years or so.

Supply-side, trickle-down, coddle the rich economics is quickly becoming discredited not only by such things as the 2007-08 economic collapse but by stagnant of falling wages and wealth for most Americans outside the most rarefied of financial strata, who are the very few who have actually thrived significantly in the past three decades.

Thus, that the GOP approach to our fiscal problems should be so repudiated not only by the 2012 elections, most polls and this recent fiscal package vote ought not to be surprising, even if a bit dismaying to many Republicans, especially the Tea Party faction.
I read somewhere that liberals are not ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so. I also read liberals live in the moment. I think if you were not living in the moment you would understand how easily you forgot that our previous president was a two term GOP and prior to Clinton were 3 terms of GOP...Arguably, Clinton really only won because of Ross Perot. Additionally, Obama's win margin in 2012 was pretty tight (much closer than 08') considering his opponent was not well like by many moderates and conservatives. Had the GOP placed a better candidate in the race, I believe he would have won.

Without getting into a fiscal debate about which party's policies has more success, I will say the core values which make up a conservative are very much alive. I think at the end of the day the majority of people simply believe in lower taxes for all and much less government.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:36 PM   #30
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And conservatives tend to be more faith-based in their thinking than fact based? I'd rather live in the moment than the past but prefer most to look forwards.

Yes, GWB did get two terms, once selected, once elected, and perhaps akin to Clinton, probably only won, errrr, prevailed in 2000 because of Nader. Also, GOP presidents have only won by a majority of votes (50%+) once out of the past six elections there is not as much of a GOP popular mandate as you might imply.

Yes, had the GOP placed a better candidate, a MUCH better candidate, on the ticket in 2012, they would have prevailed, but that's sort of self-evident in the abstract and says little about the reality of the GOP. The problem was that the GOP didn't have, much less place on the ticket, a stronger candidate. Also, I think it somewhat deflective to conveniently blame the candidate and not the policies and platform he and his party ran on and quite clearly elucidated through hundreds of millions of $s of ads and campaigning. This also ignores the strong demographic trends and headwinds facing the GOP in the future. Do recall, too, that Dems also picked up in both the Senate and the House, so it wasn't just Romney who did poorly.

As for "core values" of the American populace, they don't seem to align quite so closely with the GOPs as the GOP would like to believe. Yes, America has gone through a more conservative swing in the past 20-30 years, at least in some measures, but I think people, and especially future voters, have become disenchanted with the results and the current extremism as expressed by today's GOP and are swinging back the other way, most strongly in social issues but also in financial, economic and role-of-government issues.

In social issues too, America is trending relentlessly more liberal over time, even during this presumably more conservative era of the past 2-3 decades. Acceptance of gay rights, as an example, has been ascendant to the point where majorities now favor gay marriage equality. This is especially true for younger, and thus, future voters. Probably the one area where people do want a much smaller role and say of government is in impinging in their private lives and choices, being much more eager to get it out of their bedrooms than out of the boardrooms. This seems quite counter to the GOP of late, which has seemed almost eager to meddle in the most private and personal aspects of individuals lives - their sexuality, reproductive and personal relationships - while shunning even the slightest interference in the affairs of corporations and the public marketplace/economy.

Supply-side trickle-down economics has certainly lost its luster after 2008 and as more and more people realize that only a small, rarefied sliver at the top of the economic food chain actually substantially benefitted over the past 20-30 years. While generally for a free market, the essentially unconstrained, free-for-all market of recent GOP policy has really left a sour taste in many/most people's mouth's. Perhaps the only other major institution held in similarly high disdain as Congress (particularly the GOP part of it by the way) would be that icon of unfettered capitalism, Wall Street.

As for tax levels and role of government, I think while in the abstract, people would of course like lower taxes and need government less (and be thinner, smarter and more good looking too). In reality, the views are more complex and people don't look at these things with the ideological simplicity, linearity and rigidity expressed by today's GOP. As mentioned, Obama and Romney clearly articulated their economic positions in their campaigning and we know which guy, and thus, which views, prevailed. Recent polling, too, seems to indicate that Americans take a more nuanced and complex view of these economic issues than is currently propounded by the GOP.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:49 PM   #31
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Had the GOP placed a better candidate in the race, I believe he would have won.
Are you blaming the Republican base for their inability to support a viable candidate or are you blaming the Republican Party for not pushing a stronger candidate?

For as bad as the GOP wanted to make Obama look, what does it say about them when they can't find a candidate who can overthrow him... especially given the economic condition of the country at the time.



You either didn't have someone better or you were hiding them for unknown reasons.
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