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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:42 PM   #1
peytonracer4
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What would you do during a public robbery?

This question is for all you ccw permit holders.
In my state I can protect a third party from harm legally in public.
So lets say someone holds up a store you're in. Say they have a knife. Or say they have a gun pointed at the clerk.
What would you do in this situation? I really don't care about the money. If there wasn't a weapon involved I would let them go.
However if a weapon is drawn I would feel a serious risk of myself and obviously the person it's pointed at.

So what would you do? Would you take action? Or would you let them go and hope they're not crazy or on drugs and shoot anyone
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:53 PM   #2
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Too much information missing. Depends on the position you are in the store, the degree of which you think they're likely to commit harm (their demeanor), the likelihood if I engaged of me injuring others, my likelihood of success, etc.

Knife? Unlikely I engage at all, unless they actually make an attempt to injure someone. Gun is a different story and involves all of the above.

Your goal is not to play hero; it's to survive and help others if you reasonably can. You can get yourself in much more trouble by responding and doing poorly than just letting it go and hoping for the best (that the clerk will hand over the money and the perp will exit quickly).
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:56 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by david05111 View Post
Too much information missing. Depends on the position you are in the store, the degree of which you think they're likely to commit harm (their demeanor), the likelihood if I engaged of me injuring others, my likelihood of success, etc.

Knife? Unlikely I engage at all, unless they actually make an attempt to injure someone. Gun is a different story and involves all of the above.
Well specify any details that would make you draw.
I'm not really spelling out any specific situation. I'm just trying to gauge people opinions on what they would do.
So put any details in you want but explain your reasoning for why or why you wouldn't draw in your given situation.
My baseline is just that they are armed.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:03 AM   #4
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If you can justify taking action, take action. I have always felt that if you decide to carry, that means that you've agreed to the possibility of taking a human life if it becomes necessary. The issue is whether you decide to shoot or not, and why. You have to reason and justify in your head in about a half of a second.

For me, circumstances would dictate what I would do. There is no doubt I'm going for my gun, that's a certain fact. The question is when? I will go for it the instant that I safely can. If I am not seen, I will draw and get as close to the assailant as possible without being seen. I will then announce myself and pull the trigger as many times as it takes to drop the dirtbag. We had a trainer come in for a tactics related course who got into a shooting at a gas station. Thug enters and pulls a gun on the clerk. Cop was down one of the isles getting a bottle of pop and sees it, so he draws and sneaks up on the thug. Cop gets within a foot of the kid on the kid's 7 o'clock, yells "POLICE!" as loud as he could and then immediately pops the thug in the grape with a single shot. Game over. Store clerk told investigators that he heard the off-duty cop yell "police!" and then shoot the suspect. The cop said that he yelled "police" only for the benefit of the clerk.

This is ideally how I would do it. If I could not sneak up, I'd likely just hold as best of an advantageous position as possible behind any possible cover and send rounds downrange the instant that I knew it was a robbery or assault and that there was a weapon in play. Minnesota RECOMMENDS that a warning is given prior to the use of any force. As a cop, I would be judged in my actions like I would be as an on-duty cop, as I am using my gun under the authority of my department and our policies. As such, I am acting as a representative of my agency. Because of that, we're encouraged to give a warning if it is deemed feasible. However, this is rarely scrutinized in deadly force situations. All I have to do is explain that I was alone and had no backup, so I did not have anyone to cover me. I saw an immediate threat of death to the clerk, and if I made my presence known, my life would be in danger because action always beats reaction. If I lost on the reaction curve, I could be killed, or the clerk could be killed before I could shoot and STOP ( ) the suspect. That's why I basically executed the suspect. Besides that, there was no guarantee that my first round would incapacitate, so I needed to make sure I had the most accurate shot possible for as fast of incapacitation as possible. Additionally, I know through my training that criminals will kill witnesses to avoid prosecution, and I had reason to believe that the suspect would kill the clerk once he got the money/prescription drugs/lottery tickets/whatever.
If the criminal had regard for human life, they wouldn't be threatening a person with gun or knife in the first place.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:05 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peytonracer4 View Post
Well specify any details that would make you draw.
I'm not really spelling out any specific situation. I'm just trying to gauge people opinions on what they would do.
So put any details in you want but explain your reasoning for why or why you wouldn't draw in your given situation.
My baseline is just that they are armed.
That sort of post could go on for pages, because there are so many "what ifs". That being said...

Assessment goes as follows.

1). Identify threat. Guy has a knife? Don't act until he makes an attacking move (slash, jab at someone). Gun? Move on through the steps.

2). What's the perp's demeanor? Fairly calm, looks like he wants to just get in and out, no threats to harm/kill? Keep watching for things to escalate, but stay defensive. Agitated, angry, making harm/kill threats, firing warning shots? Get ready to engage if given the opportunity and get offensive to save my own and others' lives.

3). Target foreground and background? Is there anyone between me and the target that could get injured in an exchange of gunfire? Am I likely to hit someone between myself and the perp? How about behind? Is it a wall directly behind the perp or is it a window with a busy intersection and pedestrian and auto traffic? Its important to assess these conditions to create an angle to engage that places others out of the line of fire.

4). If I engage, do I have a tactical advantage? Do I have the high ground, basically? Am I likely to be able to put good shots on target rapidly and without injuring others? Yes? Maybe engage. No, only engage when have a clear cut chance...risking others lives to save another doesn't compute.


There are probably other thoughts that would cross my mind, but those are some basics


Reedo makes good points, but he's viewing things to some extent as a cop. He feels he has a duty (and he may) to deal with these situations at all times. And also, he's probably less likely to face huge criticism or a trial if he screws up royally. The police department and justice department will probably protect him to some degree. We normal citizens have to be a bit more wary of our actions, lest we be seen as vigilantes and wanna-be heroes. We are far more likely to face a jury if we screw up than a on or off duty cop.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:50 AM   #6
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On a serious note...for me it would depend on where I am, the weapon used, and the seriousness of the situation. If the perp has a gun and aims it at the clerk, I might aim but not fire...just to make sure I get out there alive....a knife...the same...aim but not fire until I really think he is going to harm the clerk. These hypotheticals are always tough to quarterback. My priority would be to get out safely, but if I can also safely help the clerk make it home, I will.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:53 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
If you can justify taking action, take action. I have always felt that if you decide to carry, that means that you've agreed to the possibility of taking a human life if it becomes necessary. The issue is whether you decide to shoot or not, and why. You have to reason and justify in your head in about a half of a second.

For me, circumstances would dictate what I would do. There is no doubt I'm going for my gun, that's a certain fact. The question is when? I will go for it the instant that I safely can. If I am not seen, I will draw and get as close to the assailant as possible without being seen. I will then announce myself and pull the trigger as many times as it takes to drop the dirtbag. We had a trainer come in for a tactics related course who got into a shooting at a gas station. Thug enters and pulls a gun on the clerk. Cop was down one of the isles getting a bottle of pop and sees it, so he draws and sneaks up on the thug. Cop gets within a foot of the kid on the kid's 7 o'clock, yells "POLICE!" as loud as he could and then immediately pops the thug in the grape with a single shot. Game over. Store clerk told investigators that he heard the off-duty cop yell "police!" and then shoot the suspect. The cop said that he yelled "police" only for the benefit of the clerk.

This is ideally how I would do it. If I could not sneak up, I'd likely just hold as best of an advantageous position as possible behind any possible cover and send rounds downrange the instant that I knew it was a robbery or assault and that there was a weapon in play. Minnesota RECOMMENDS that a warning is given prior to the use of any force. As a cop, I would be judged in my actions like I would be as an on-duty cop, as I am using my gun under the authority of my department and our policies. As such, I am acting as a representative of my agency. Because of that, we're encouraged to give a warning if it is deemed feasible. However, this is rarely scrutinized in deadly force situations. All I have to do is explain that I was alone and had no backup, so I did not have anyone to cover me. I saw an immediate threat of death to the clerk, and if I made my presence known, my life would be in danger because action always beats reaction. If I lost on the reaction curve, I could be killed, or the clerk could be killed before I could shoot and STOP ( ) the suspect. That's why I basically executed the suspect. Besides that, there was no guarantee that my first round would incapacitate, so I needed to make sure I had the most accurate shot possible for as fast of incapacitation as possible. Additionally, I know through my training that criminals will kill witnesses to avoid prosecution, and I had reason to believe that the suspect would kill the clerk once he got the money/prescription drugs/lottery tickets/whatever.
If the criminal had regard for human life, they wouldn't be threatening a person with gun or knife in the first place.
My only issue with yelling "police" (for you obviously) is that the perp probably has his gun pointed at the clerk with their finger on the trigger...and you yelling police all of the sudden might startle them into pulling the trigger (by accident, but still)...
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:52 AM   #8
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Reedo makes good points, but he's viewing things to some extent as a cop. He feels he has a duty (and he may) to deal with these situations at all times. And also, he's probably less likely to face huge criticism or a trial if he screws up royally. The police department and justice department will probably protect him to some degree. We normal citizens have to be a bit more wary of our actions, lest we be seen as vigilantes and wanna-be heroes. We are far more likely to face a jury if we screw up than a on or off duty cop.
How I operate will definitely be viewed differently than how it will if it was done by a normal citizen. This is the way things are, and unfortunately it is a separate standard. How I decide to act is more based on how I would act on duty.

Quote:
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My only issue with yelling "police" (for you obviously) is that the perp probably has his gun pointed at the clerk with their finger on the trigger...and you yelling police all of the sudden might startle them into pulling the trigger (by accident, but still)...
The guy that did it, literally pulled the trigger as soon as he completed saying the word. ME- I'd identify myself only if I deemed it necessary. I would definitely agree that not saying anything is probably a safer option.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:57 AM   #9
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completely depends on the situation.

100 different robberies = 100 different situations.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:29 AM   #10
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Wait till everyone is distracted at fleeing robber and grab some cash!
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:41 AM   #11
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Can I safely remove myself from the situation? If so, that's my course of action number 1.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:51 AM   #12
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Call JJ
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:00 AM   #13
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^ haha +1
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:03 AM   #14
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:27 AM   #15
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I hope with with all my faith that a jury would side in my favor if I shot and killed an armed criminal that is pointing a gun at a victim. In my opinion,that is as clear as it gets, when a bad guy pulls gun and takes aim at a human-he immediately becomes a justified target. I hope I am not wrong. If it is a knife and there is a counter between the victim like a gas station or store I would be very hesitant to act.
I wonder what life is like for people that have done that. I would fear retaliation from family or thug friends of the crim for the rest of my life.

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Old 01-05-2013, 10:59 AM   #16
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Would it be wise to not have any mods on my ccw? Say I do have to discharge my weapon and I drop a threat... will I have prosicutors coming after me saying ive been moding my gun with the intent to kill because of a ghost trigger or what not?

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Old 01-05-2013, 11:01 AM   #17
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Sometime I will change it up and carry my sr9c with a trigger job..

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Old 01-05-2013, 11:20 AM   #18
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:28 AM   #19
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During a armed robbery I'd run towards the perp, slide across the hood of a car, make sure I do a roll right after the slide, from the roll make sure to land prone while i tea cup my glock and yell "FREEZE".
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:28 AM   #20
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Would it be wise to not have any mods on my ccw? Say I do have to discharge my weapon and I drop a threat... will I have prosicutors coming after me saying ive been moding my gun with the intent to kill because of a ghost trigger or what not?

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