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Old 01-08-2013, 12:26 PM   #21
WDE46
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Originally Posted by ///MPR77 View Post
Why do these things have such a weird, spread out failure rate?
Aside from the O Ring, why do these fail for some, and last longer for others.

Here is my old one.

I pulled this out at 293k miles.
Replaced it with a new one, but I feel like the old one was fine.
It might come down to the dimensional tolerences of the injection molded parts. Here's a couple scenarios with possible outcomes:

Scenario 1:
The square yellow piece is in the upper range of it's size tolerence.
the flap's square hole is on the lower range of it's size tolerance.

This scenario creates a tight fit which may prevent the flap from ever jiggling and wearing down the inner surface of the flap/outer surface of the yellow arm

Scenario 2:
The square yellow piece is in the lower range of it's size tolerance (bordering on too small)
The flap's square hole is in the higer range of it's size tolerance (almost too big)

This scenario creates a situation in which there may be a small amount of play b/w the yellow piece and the flap, and the parts experience increased wear. The play will increase over time which will continue to increase the wear.


It could also come down to driving habits, but I think the above is possible.

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Old 01-08-2013, 01:34 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by WDE46 View Post
It might come down to the dimensional tolerences of the injection molded parts. Here's a couple scenarios with possible outcomes:

Scenario 1:
The square yellow piece is in the upper range of it's size tolerence.
the flap's square hole is on the lower range of it's size tolerance.

This scenario creates a tight fit which may prevent the flap from ever jiggling and wearing down the inner surface of the flap/outer surface of the yellow arm

Scenario 2:
The square yellow piece is in the lower range of it's size tolerance (bordering on too small)
The flap's square hole is in the higer range of it's size tolerance (almost too big)

This scenario creates a situation in which there may be a small amount of play b/w the yellow piece and the flap, and the parts experience increased wear. The play will increase over time which will continue to increase the wear.


It could also come down to driving habits, but I think the above is possible.
The only scenario is the fact that it's two pieces of plastic out under force and tension that they simply cannot withstand over time. The shape is barely hexagonal at best and an incredibly poor choice for connecting two pieces together that are supposed to pivot on the same axis. Especially when the smaller (almost cylindrical) core is supposed to open and close a flap that is unde constant vacuum. A triangular shape or even square would've been better suited. But the kit supplied aluminum replacement with WAY tighter fit coupled with loc tite is sure to prove better. Paying a third the price for 10 times more durable parts is a sure win for me. Regardless of failure rate. I'd rather good something before it fails than after any day.

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Old 01-08-2013, 01:36 PM   #23
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That's a common statement but if you look at people giving solid advice that is commonly accepted, you'll notice they've been here a while. This forum has a sh!t ton of activity and we see every problem come and go. Newcomers come on here all the time with info/news on what they did to their car and we've seen it all. We know what works and what doesn't, what's cost-efficient and what isn't. Rebuilding the DISA is borderline but consensus is just replace it with a new one. believe me, we have plenty of tinkerers on here, including myself. there's just some things not worth tinkering with.

If you search, you'll see why people prefer new ones to rebuilding it. I haven't looked into it much cause honestly i don't care. It's like rebuilding a window regulator.. i'm sure you could do it for pennies.. but why bother?
I don't see how spending more money for a worse product is sound advice. I saw no mention of how great this kit was, so I shared. Your window regulator analogy is frivolous. I improved my DISA rather than simply replacing

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Old 01-08-2013, 01:44 PM   #24
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The only scenario is the fact that it's two pieces of plastic out under force and tension that they simply cannot withstand over time. The shape is barely hexagonal at best and an incredibly poor choice for connecting two pieces together that are supposed to pivot on the same axis. Especially when the smaller (almost cylindrical) core is supposed to open and close a flap that is unde constant vacuum. A triangular shape or even square would've been better suited. But the kit supplied aluminum replacement with WAY tighter fit coupled with loc tite is sure to prove better. Paying a third the price for 10 times more durable parts is a sure win for me. Regardless of failure rate. I'd rather good something before it fails than after any day.

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I forgot it was hexagonal, but the principles still apply from my post. It would explain the fact that some people's DISAs don't develop play nearly as quickly. Two parts wedged together don't abrade each other. Parts with play will abrade eachother very quickly and develop more play and more abrasion. That's the hypothesis I proposed.
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:53 PM   #25
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I have to disagree Mango. The GAS kit replaces all the DISA's failure prone parts. The only thing that can break on it after the upgrade is the vacuum membrane. I'm not sure how often that breaks if ever. The kit also saves over $100. If the vacuum membrane does eventually fail in the upgraded DISA, you can buy a new one and transfer the GAS kit. It's a win-win situation to do the kit IMO.
All you Koolaid drinkers be careful here.

The vacuum diaphragm and the solenoid do fail, the vacuum diaphragm fails far more often than the solenoid. The vacuum diaphragm is rubber and in the under hood heat and gasoline/oil vapor rich environment, the vacuum diaphragm is likely to fail somewhere after the 8 year mark give or take.

As for moving the parts once installed, not sure this is so easy with the red Loctite that I think is provided.

This is kind of like the situation where everyone is interested in replacing the $30 worth of intake boots on the car with over $100 of silicon boots. Look at it this way, replace your intake boots every 6 years, likely you will not be replacing a 2nd set of boots, but if you do, you can check your DISA, replace the O-ring, clean the ICV sort the CCV and all the other vacuum lines by year 12, I doubt many of us will be driving our E46 by they time they turn 18 years old?
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:58 PM   #26
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All you Koolaid drinkers be careful here.

The vacuum diaphragm and the solenoid do fail, the vacuum diaphragm fails far more often than the solenoid. The vacuum diaphragm is rubber and in the under hood heat and gasoline/oil vapor rich environment, the vacuum diaphragm is likely to fail somewhere after the 8 year mark give or take.

As for moving the parts once installed, not sure this is so easy with the red Loctite that I think is provided.

This is kind of like the situation where everyone is interested in replacing the $30 worth of intake boots on the car with over $100 of silicon boots. Look at it this way, replace your intake boots every 6 years, likely you will not be replacing a 2nd set of boots, but if you do, you can check your DISA, replace the O-ring, clean the ICV sort the CCV and all the other vacuum lines by year 12, I doubt many of us will be driving our E46 by they time they turn 18 years old?
I'm not sure I would use the red loctite then. That stuff is serious.
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:59 PM   #27
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I don't see how spending more money for a worse product is sound advice. I saw no mention of how great this kit was, so I shared. Your window regulator analogy is frivolous. I improved my DISA rather than simply replacing

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Like I said, you're new here. Sound advice is what I do. Not saying your method was necessarily a bad one, but it isn't good, either. Results are mixed at best. Safe bet is to just replace it. Listen to JFOJ
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:33 PM   #28
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^
No matter if Donald's new or not. He's sharing his first hand experience on the G.A.S. DISA kit with all of us. That's the important part here.
We'll see if the remaining portion (vacuum diaphragm) of his original DISA will hold up from this point on.

I replaced my DISA with a brand new unit last year.
I had considered getting the same G.A.S. V.R.K. however, at the time I just didn't wanted to mess with retrofitting anything. Plug & play - less than 10 minutes to get everything re-assembled.
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:40 PM   #29
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^
No matter if Donald's new or not. He's sharing his first hand experience on the G.A.S. DISA kit with all of us. That's the important part here.
We'll see if the remaining portion (vacuum diaphragm) of his original DISA will hold up from this point on.

I replaced my DISA with a brand new unit last year.
I had considered getting the same G.A.S. V.R.K. however, at the time I just didn't wanted to mess with retrofitting anything. Plug & play - less than 10 minutes to get everything re-assembled.
No no, that's not my point. My point is i'm seeing a trend here of new members making posts talking down to (in some cases, flat out cussing out) members and their advice which are gained from experience with this stuff.

And are you sure this kit is new? I've been hearing about it myself and did you actually read what JFOJ said about the internals (which are untouched by this "rebuild"?) Seems again, people are avoiding the safe bet to save a few bucks. If this kit is brand spanking new, we have no long-term evidence of its performance so any early adopters are more or less guinea pigs. (More power to you, but I don't like to experiment)
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:09 PM   #30
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I think it's pretty clear that this kit works perfectly. There is no way the stock setup is superior in this case. The only thing you can call into question after installing the kit is the vacuum diaphragm. That's a perfectly valid concern. JFOJ did have a good point though. If you just replace the whole thing, it'll be ALL good for the next 8 years, while a repair kit might last 1-2 before the diaphragm fails (if it fails that quickly).
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:18 PM   #31
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No no, that's not my point. My point is i'm seeing a trend here of new members making posts talking down to (in some cases, flat out cussing out) members and their advice which are gained from experience with this stuff.

And are you sure this kit is new? I've been hearing about it myself and did you actually read what JFOJ said about the internals (which are untouched by this "rebuild"?) Seems again, people are avoiding the safe bet to save a few bucks. If this kit is brand spanking new, we have no long-term evidence of its performance so any early adopters are more or less guinea pigs. (More power to you, but I don't like to experiment)
Well then make that point in a thread where it has some relevance. I did no such thing. In fact, it was quite the opposite. I simply wrote how well the kit worked and you told me how wrong i was for using it...

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Old 01-08-2013, 04:24 PM   #32
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FWIW, I've never seen a DISA fail in real life. I've worked on quite a few E46s too. The ones that do fail have 10 years/100k+ miles on them. I wouldn't exactly call it a pile of dog &&&& because it needs to be replaced every 10 years. Lots of people have done this mod and regretted it, AFAIK. Glad it worked for you though.

GL!
Can you show me the many posts of users that used this kit and regretted it?

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Old 01-08-2013, 04:27 PM   #33
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FWIW, I've never seen a DISA fail in real life. I've worked on quite a few E46s too. The ones that do fail have 10 years/100k+ miles on them. I wouldn't exactly call it a pile of dog &&&& because it needs to be replaced every 10 years. Lots of people have done this mod and regretted it, AFAIK. Glad it worked for you though.

GL!
Who has regretted it?

The big issue is if the DISA pin fails, it'll blow the motor. Very similar to the S54 Vanos hub issues in that regard.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:59 PM   #34
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Well then make that point in a thread where it has some relevance. I did no such thing. In fact, it was quite the opposite. I simply wrote how well the kit worked and you told me how wrong i was for using it...

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Nowhere did I say any such thing.

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Who has regretted it?

The big issue is if the DISA pin fails, it'll blow the motor. Very similar to the S54 Vanos hub issues in that regard.
I've been told personally to avoid JUST repairing the old unit as I had a similar inquiry. I have no objection to the kit and I'm sure it's made well, but you're repairing an old part. It would be better to spend the $170 for a new DISA + the $80 for the rebuild kit and rebuild it then just paying $80 JUST to rebuild an old, failing, and brittle part.

http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/sho...2&postcount=22

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...2&postcount=63

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Old 01-08-2013, 05:01 PM   #35
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Sorry but this post is so good I must quote it in its entirety. It deserves its own post!

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What everyone needs to understand about the DISA, there are many parts to it that can fail, not just the butterfly shaft.

The $92 fix only addresses one failure mode of the DISA and it does not really do that so well in my opinion.

In addition to the butterfly valve, there is a vacuum actuator that does fail and when it does, guess what, another vacuum leak and the DISA does not perform properly.

There is an electrical solenoid that controls the valve that can fail and leak vacuum as well and will not control the DISA.

I have not seen this, but it is possible the DISA case could crack and leak vacuum as well.

A new DISA is about $175 on line and if you replace it with a new one, chances are you will never need to replace it again as long as you own your car.

If it was me, I would never waste the time or money to partially fix the DISA when the partial fix is about 65-70% the cost of a completely new unit.

Just something to think about while you ponder buying some partial rebuild kit.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:24 PM   #36
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Jb weld on the shaft and inside the flap and a $5 o-ring fixes the DISA flap flapping and the vac leaks As long as the pin is good no worries. I did it when the money was tight to keep me going. I haven't found a reason to get a new one yet with 50K on one I did. I've checked it few times all is well.


OK here comes the flames
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:26 PM   #37
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Sorry but this post is so good I must quote it in its entirety. It deserves its own post!
Right, but a new BMW DISA does not address the design efficiency of the pin. The Gold Valve is the best option.

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Jb weld on the shaft and inside the flap and a $5 o-ring fixes the DISA flap flapping and the vac leaks As long as the pin is good no worries. I did it when the money was tight to keep me going. I haven't found a reason to get a new one yet with 50K on one I did. I've checked it few times all is well.


OK here comes the flames
JB Weld? It's your motor.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:30 PM   #38
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Right, but a new BMW DISA does not address the design efficiency of the pin. The Gold Valve is the best option.



JB Weld? It's your motor.
You sure it's a design "deficiency" as opposed to just wear and tear?? At any rate, you will (at most) only need to change this part once in your car's life time. Mine is pushing 11 years old, 130k miles and I've verified it's super tight, noise free, and holds vacuum very well. ///MPR77 had 293k miles on his when he replaced it as PM and even his orginal DISA was still going strong.

What's this deficiency you speak of? In that light, every other part on our cars have a "deficiency."
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:36 PM   #39
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The post by JFOJ is good reasoning. Well said. Thinking about it now I probably won't get the repair kit as it'll be many years until a new one wears out.

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You sure it's a design "deficiency" as opposed to just wear and tear?? At any rate, you will (at most) only need to change this part once in your car's life time. Mine is pushing 11 years old, 130k miles and I've verified it's super tight, noise free, and holds vacuum very well. ///MPR77 had 293k miles on his when he replaced it as PM and even his orginal DISA was still going strong.

What's this deficiency you speak of? In that light, every other part on our cars have a "deficiency."
I'd say it's a deficiency for it to wear out by 70K miles. That was my experience unfortunately.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:45 PM   #40
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The post by JFOJ is good reasoning. Well said. Thinking about it now I probably won't get the repair kit as it'll be many years until a new one wears out.



I'd say it's a deficiency for it to wear out by 70K miles. That was my experience unfortunately.
Some people experience wheel bearing failures at early mileage... name your part--it probably happens. Safe to call it a deficiency? Not so sure.

Some people may have certain driving habits or conditions which may speed up failure. Not sure?
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