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Old 10-22-2012, 08:08 PM   #101
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i have to abandon my own thread b/c i'm tired of that assh0le
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:15 PM   #102
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C'mon man, you're smarter than this.

Clearly you're a fan of PEDs, maybe even a user. I'm fine with that, I won't sweat you for it.

But you're being really disingenuous with this post, especially "an organization that lets this happen". Why hadn't the NFL done more to prevent concussions until the last few years? Why didn't auto racing require HANS devices before Dale Sr died? I remember seeing NHL players in the 80s without helmets. Why aren't MLB pitchers required to wear helmets? Why hasn't ALMS done more to slow the cars down? Why aren't all boxers and MMA fighters required to wear headrear protection? Right now we could look at any sport and say "there's more they can do to increase safety".

Spending an entire career (15+ years) training for and competing in the event IS dangerous already, but riding 2,000 miles in 21 days is the freakin point of the freakin event. Having all these guys holding a PED competition all throughout those 15+ years adds a game of chemical brinkmanship that increases the risk without adding anything of value to the sport.

PEDs are banned for several reasons, but pretending like the underlying issue isn't the health risks is just naive.
Nonsense. Believing health was ever the issue is naive. Have you bothered to ever read up on the history of PED legislation? I'm going to assume not or you'd appreciate that it's entirely motivated by unfair advantage. The health argument didn't come around until years later.

And I agree that there are many things that many sports should do to protect the players. But don't tell me it's an epidemic when the numbers clearly paint a different picture.

When there are numerous things threatening the health/life of athletes, I find it very disingenuous that we are spending so much time persecuting athletes who use PEDs, despite overwhelming evidence that they are not the biggest threat to the athlete. If we want to protect them, that's one issue, and there are much bigger risks facing them.

Until we actually put the athletes' health first, (which is not happening currently is just about any sport) it's undeniable that this is purely an argument about competitive advantage.

And if its purely about competitive advantage, I would suggest that these drugs actually level the playing field. Lets say Lance is telling the truth and never used PEDs. Shouldn't we let other athletes use them to be on par with Lance's natural gifts so that it truly becomes a sport where the hardest worker wins?

Or, conversely, lets say Lance did use PEDs. Does it change the fact that he kept focus, pedaled harder, pedaled smarter, and finished first seven times? No. And he did it using drugs that are safer than the underlying sport itself.
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:27 PM   #103
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Nonsense. Believing health was ever the issue is naive. Have you bothered to ever read up on the history of PED legislation? I'm going to assume not or you'd appreciate that it's entirely motivated by unfair advantage. The health argument didn't come around until years later.

And I agree that there are many things that many sports should do to protect the players. But don't tell me it's an epidemic when the numbers clearly paint a different picture.

When there are numerous things threatening the health/life of athletes, I find it very disingenuous that we are spending so much time persecuting athletes who use PEDs, despite overwhelming evidence that they are not the biggest threat to the athlete. If we want to protect them, that's one issue, and there are much bigger risks facing them.

Until we actually put the athletes' health first, (which is not happening currently is just about any sport) it's undeniable that this is purely an argument about competitive advantage.

And if its purely about competitive advantage, I would suggest that these drugs actually level the playing field. Lets say Lance is telling the truth and never used PEDs. Shouldn't we let other athletes use them to be on par with Lance's natural gifts so that it truly becomes a sport where the hardest worker wins?

Or, conversely, lets say Lance did use PEDs. Does it change the fact that he kept focus, pedaled harder, pedaled smarter, and finished first seven times? No. And he did it using drugs that are safer than the underlying sport itself.
You're allowing your appetite for PEDs to shorten your vision.

Why is competitive advantage a problem? Because if one athlete gains it through using PEDs, the other athletes will jump on board and do it too. Why is that a problem? Because of the potential health issues.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:35 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
You're allowing your appetite for PEDs to shorten your vision.

Why is competitive advantage a problem? Because if one athlete gains it through using PEDs, the other athletes will jump on board and do it too. Why is that a problem? Because of the potential health issues.
I have no "appetite" for PEDs.

I have seen you make points in many threads, and never have I seen you make such baseless arguments. If the health issues are there, and especially if people are dying from these PEDs, you'll certainly be able to provide some numbers on this epidemic. Yet you keep repeating the same argument over and over without any backing.

Provide the numbers and this will be a semblance of an argument.
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:02 PM   #105
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dwass325 doesn't do what dwass325 does for dwass 325.

Dwass325 does what dwass325 does because dwass335 is dwass325
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:15 PM   #106
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guy didn't play by the rules and now must pay the consequences.

simple as that
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:38 AM   #107
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I have no "appetite" for PEDs.

I have seen you make points in many threads, and never have I seen you make such baseless arguments. If the health issues are there, and especially if people are dying from these PEDs, you'll certainly be able to provide some numbers on this epidemic. Yet you keep repeating the same argument over and over without any backing.

Provide the numbers and this will be a semblance of an argument.
LOL, thanks for the sorta compliment, I think.

Who said there's an epidemic? I certainly didn't. The various sanctioning bodies and anti-doping orgs would gleefully point to their efforts as a primary reason why PED usage isn't more widespread. As long as athletes are worried about getting caught, the % of athletes using will be lower, and even amongst those using, the degree of use should be lower.

The question is, if the UCI (in this case) dropped the rules against PEDs and pro cyclists were allowed to use anything their finely conditioned hearts desired, would they? And what effect would that have on the sport?
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:28 AM   #108
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LOL, thanks for the sorta compliment, I think.

Who said there's an epidemic? I certainly didn't. The various sanctioning bodies and anti-doping orgs would gleefully point to their efforts as a primary reason why PED usage isn't more widespread. As long as athletes are worried about getting caught, the % of athletes using will be lower, and even amongst those using, the degree of use should be lower.

The question is, if the UCI (in this case) dropped the rules against PEDs and pro cyclists were allowed to use anything their finely conditioned hearts desired, would they? And what effect would that have on the sport?
So any statistics?
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he's just the resident off-topic ball breaker. Dont take it personally.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:29 AM   #109
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guy didn't play by the rules and now must pay the consequences.

simple as that
The sport can't as much money off him now that he's the villain...
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:44 AM   #110
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LOL, thanks for the sorta compliment, I think.

Who said there's an epidemic? I certainly didn't. The various sanctioning bodies and anti-doping orgs would gleefully point to their efforts as a primary reason why PED usage isn't more widespread. As long as athletes are worried about getting caught, the % of athletes using will be lower, and even amongst those using, the degree of use should be lower.

The question is, if the UCI (in this case) dropped the rules against PEDs and pro cyclists were allowed to use anything their finely conditioned hearts desired, would they? And what effect would that have on the sport?
So, as coco savage pointed out, you have no statistics and are conceding your argument was based on nothing?

As for what effect it would have, well, if the top target, who was tested thousands and thousands of times, was able to either pass those tests or get the results hushed, I'd say the effect would be nil.

Let's be honest - cycling owes just about everything to Lance. Their numbers would be a fraction if not for him. If they had enforced their drug policy, cycling would still be 100% a fringe sport where some grown men with shaved legs hunch over on bicycles. Instead, they allowed him to continue and made millions (if not billions) as an industry. Like gun manufacturers to Obama, sometimes your sworn enemy is your best helper.
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:29 AM   #111
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So, as coco savage pointed out, you have no statistics and are conceding your argument was based on nothing?
What do you want to see stats on? The epidemic I don't claim exists? You're right, I cannot produce data to back up a claim you think I made, but did not.

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As for what effect it would have, well, if the top target, who was tested thousands and thousands of times, was able to either pass those tests or get the results hushed, I'd say the effect would be nil.
Now see, here's how it works. You have made a statement that Lance was tested "thousands and thousands" of times. Please post a link to a single instance of anyone claiming Lance was tested at least 4,000 times ("thousands" is plural, so "thousands" x 2 is a minimum of 4). Or anywhere in that ballpark.

From the USADA's report:

Quote:
Mr. Armstrong’s counsel stated on the television show Nightline after his retirement in 2005 that Armstrong had successfully completed more than 300 doping tests over the course of a fourteen year career in professional cycling. Armstrong was retired until late 2008 and then came out of retirement to compete again for a little over two years. Yet, by the time of his second retirement his lawyers’ claims about the number of tests completed by Armstrong had mushroomed to “500 to 600 tests.” During his lawsuit Mr. Armstrong refused to respond to USADA’s requests for information about the number of tests he claimed to have had.

USADA has tested Mr. Armstrong on less than sixty occasions. The UCI has been quoted as saying their records indicate slightly over 200 tests for Mr. Armstrong. Thus, the number of actual controls on Mr. Armstrong over the years appears to have been considerably fewer than the number claimed by Armstrong and his lawyers.
In fact, the report goes on to state that some of the UCI "tests" were passport blood draws. So the number of documented tests is about 260 and probably lower.

That's a long way from 4,000, but I eagerly await your source.

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Let's be honest - cycling owes just about everything to Lance. Their numbers would be a fraction if not for him. If they had enforced their drug policy, cycling would still be 100% a fringe sport where some grown men with shaved legs hunch over on bicycles. Instead, they allowed him to continue and made millions (if not billions) as an industry. Like gun manufacturers to Obama, sometimes your sworn enemy is your best helper.
Cycling in Europe is not a fringe sport, and was not even before Lance came along.

TdF-style road racing is still a fringe sport in the US and it was even through Lance's heyday. Lance himself became a celebrity, and during the TdF, people in the US wanted to know his results. But people paying attention a few weeks out of a few years because of one guy does not move a sport into the mainstream. He for sure moved the needle, but its not like suddenly the Vuelta and Giro were being talked about as much as week 4 in the NFL.

Despite the inaccuracy of your "fringe sport" claim, there's no doubt that Lance's success made a lot of people a lot of money. And TdF had a love/hate with the guy. They loved the increased exposure (esp in the US) because of his personality, success and cancer story, but a lot of people didn't like him and wanted to see him lose for a variety of reasons, including that he was an American beating Europeans.

But that goes back to what I stated previously about the product. A doper beating a field full of dopers is roughly the same product as a non-doper beating a field full of non-dopers. The primary difference would be the public's appetite for the doper version of the product in the long run.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:54 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
What do you want to see stats on? The epidemic I don't claim exists? You're right, I cannot produce data to back up a claim you think I made, but did not.



Now see, here's how it works. You have made a statement that Lance was tested "thousands and thousands" of times. Please post a link to a single instance of anyone claiming Lance was tested at least 4,000 times ("thousands" is plural, so "thousands" x 2 is a minimum of 4). Or anywhere in that ballpark.

From the USADA's report:



In fact, the report goes on to state that some of the UCI "tests" were passport blood draws. So the number of documented tests is about 260 and probably lower.

That's a long way from 4,000, but I eagerly await your source.



Cycling in Europe is not a fringe sport, and was not even before Lance came along.

TdF-style road racing is still a fringe sport in the US and it was even through Lance's heyday. Lance himself became a celebrity, and during the TdF, people in the US wanted to know his results. But people paying attention a few weeks out of a few years because of one guy does not move a sport into the mainstream. He for sure moved the needle, but its not like suddenly the Vuelta and Giro were being talked about as much as week 4 in the NFL.

Despite the inaccuracy of your "fringe sport" claim, there's no doubt that Lance's success made a lot of people a lot of money. And TdF had a love/hate with the guy. They loved the increased exposure (esp in the US) because of his personality, success and cancer story, but a lot of people didn't like him and wanted to see him lose for a variety of reasons, including that he was an American beating Europeans.

But that goes back to what I stated previously about the product. A doper beating a field full of dopers is roughly the same product as a non-doper beating a field full of non-dopers. The primary difference would be the public's appetite for the doper version of the product in the long run.
Stop dodging the issue - if the point of anti-doping rules is to ensure rider safety, produce the data showing that PEDs used in cycling are dangerous.

It's fine that I introduced the word epidemic. It doesn't change that your argument was that anti-PED rules are to protect the riders.
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-24-2012, 02:07 AM   #113
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Stop dodging the issue - if the point of anti-doping rules is to ensure rider safety, produce the data showing that PEDs used in cycling are dangerous.

It's fine that I introduced the word epidemic. It doesn't change that your argument was that anti-PED rules are to protect the riders.
Regarding the reasons they do it:

From UCI's anti-doping page:
Quote:
The International Cycling Union considers riders’ health and the promotion of sporting ethics as high priorities.
From WADA President Welcome message:
Quote:
Looking back over the relatively brief period since WADA was established, I am amazed at its accomplishments. What began in 1999 as an urgent response to a crisis in sport, has evolved into a global network of committed sports and government authorities and individuals working together to protect athlete health and the integrity of sport.
From WADA's History page:
Quote:
The death of Danish cyclist Knud Enemark Jensen during competition at the Olympic Games in Rome 1960 (the autopsy revealed traces of amphetamine) increased the pressure for sports authorities to introduce drug testing.
In 1966 UCI (cycling) and FIFA (football) were among the first IFs to introduce doping tests in their respective World Championships. In the next year the International Olympic Committee (IOC) instituted its Medical Commission and set up its first list of prohibited substances. Drug tests were first introduced at the Olympic Winter Games in Grenoble and at the Olympic Games in Mexico in 1968. In the year before, the urgency of anti-doping work had been highlighted by another tragic death, that of cyclist Tom Simpson during the Tour de France.
What they're trying to prevent from happening to the athletes, from WebMD.com, this list is strictly for anabolic steroids, imagine how long it would get if we included all PEDs:

Quote:
What problems can abusing anabolic steroids cause?
Anabolic steroids can cause serious side effects. Some of these effects can be permanent.
In men, anabolic steroids can:
- Reduce sperm count.
- Shrink the testicles.
- Cause you not to be able to father children.
- Enlarge the breasts.
In women, anabolic steroids can:
- Increase body hair.
- Make skin rough.
- Decrease breast size.
- Enlarge the clitoris.
- Deepen the voice.
In both men and women, anabolic steroids can cause:
- Bone growth to stop before it is complete in a teen. The teen may not reach his or her full adult height.
- A heart attack or stroke, even in a very young person.
- High blood pressure.
- Higher levels of bad cholesterol (LDL) and lower levels of good cholesterol (HDL).
- Liver disease and possibly liver cancer. The chance of these problems is higher when steroids are taken as a pill.
- Oily skin and acne.
- Male-pattern hair loss.
- Skin infections that can become severe if the drug was tainted with bacteria.
- Irritability, rage, uncontrolled high energy (mania), or false beliefs (delusions).
People who abuse anabolic steroids can have withdrawal symptoms when they stop taking them. Symptoms include having mood swings, being extremely tired, having no desire to eat, and craving steroids.

I didn't see you include the link to Lance's 4,000 doping tests. Are you planning to back up that statement or retract it?
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Old 10-24-2012, 02:19 AM   #114
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:42 PM   #115
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:57 AM   #116
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Disgraced cyclist Lance Armstrong sued by newspaper for $1.5million after it lost libel case over doping story

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ing-story.html
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:53 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
Regarding the reasons they do it:

From UCI's anti-doping page:


From WADA President Welcome message:


From WADA's History page:


What they're trying to prevent from happening to the athletes, from WebMD.com, this list is strictly for anabolic steroids, imagine how long it would get if we included all PEDs:

I didn't see you include the link to Lance's 4,000 doping tests. Are you planning to back up that statement or retract it?
Didn't see your response. If you're still interested in the conversation:

I'll admit that my 4k number was from a news story and I don't have a source. I think you can also admit that 260 tests (or about 3 per month, assuming the tests were performed over his 7yrs at the top of the TDF) is a significant number of tests.

With that out of the way, I'll separate this into the two major points, as I see them.

1) I've still yet to see what the "urgent...crisis" was. You've cited a source that references two deaths - certainly tragic, but hardly what any reasonable person would consider an "urgent crisis."

Did you bother to notice that the deaths cited in your sources happened in 1960 and 1968? Are you really going to back the idea that the anti-doping actions in the 1990s and 2000s are the result of two deaths that happened 31-39 years before the action took place? Keep in mind that Tom Simpson was drinking alcohol while riding and that the sanctioning body limited riders to two litres of water.

I'd also remind you that you spent a fair amount of time arguing that the issue wasn't in response to an "epidemic" and then cited a source claiming the issue is in response to an "urgent response to a crisis."

2) Regarding the list of side-effects, I'm going to focus on the ones applicable to men only, as mens' sports have been the focus of this discussion. It's also notable that you provided a link to "abuse" of anabolic steroids and completely avoided a discussion of simple use. So you're either actively avoiding the discussion of reasonable use, or failing to see that all use =/= abuse.

With that out of the way...

The male-only issues are A) reversible and B) not life-threatening. Surely you know that simply riding a bicycle can cause fertility issues as well ( http://men.webmd.com/features/biking...on-a-real-risk) so I'm not seeing the compelling argument in the male-only issues. As for infertility, perhaps you'd like me to reference a number of professional bodybuilders (probably the most prolific PED users on the planet) who have fathered children well into their careers?

On the mixed male/female side-effects:
- the bone statement is completely valid, and I'd suppor allowing PEDs in the same way we allow other drugs - to adults who can legally make their own decisions, not to children.
- the BP issues are legitimate, though I would note that they're more common with the drugs used by bodybuilders than cyclists (noting that PEDs are a family of things, not one substance.)
- the drugs Lance was/is accused of using are primarily injectible, and not oral.
- I don't find topics such as "pattern baldness" very persuading. If a rider doesn't care about his hairline, why should we?
- Skin infections if the drug was tainted with bacteria? This can happen with any poorly-performed procedure that pierces the skin - even the blood tests that the riders have performed.
- the "rage" issue is utter nonsense and has no medical information to back it. If you'd like, I'd be happy to provide the actual background of the "roid rage" defense and would note that there are no scientific tests to back this up (it's very similar to the "Twinkie Defense").

So...still looking for the "crisis" they had to urgently respond to. It's a bit hard to argue that it's not a response to an epidemic, given that that's exactly what your sources say they're doing.
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:01 AM   #118
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:15 AM   #119
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I'll be watching. I would also like to state my opinion that I do not give a sh1t if anyone uses PED's
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:18 AM   #120
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I would like to state my opinion that I still don't think riding a bike is a sport, so idgaf what lance says. He is also a giant asshole
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