325xi brake pads

Originally Posted by bikesandcars

Are you joking or trolling

I find hawks work great

Yeah, Kub's not your basic joker or troll up here.

With absolutely no experience or any real information, I've read Hawk street pads were poor performers. Reading is reading, how owners test rate products may be subjective but at least, is real world. Sometimes a myth is born that is based on reading alone. It's often really hard to tell what's up?

Look at user comments buying your next mobile device. You'll never find a model where all user reviews are positive. Same with oil and pads, lot's of crazy talk and product passion that's actually kind of funny at times.

Originally Posted by White_Knuckles

With absolutely no experience or any real information, I've read Hawk street pads were poor performers. Reading is reading, how owners test rate products may be subjective but at least, is real world. Sometimes a myth is born that is based on reading alone. It's often really hard to tell what's up?

.

I'm not going to be buried with a set of hawk pads... far from it.. but I have found they make a good product IF (very important) you choose the pad that meets your application. Their variety of pads lets you get very specific braking characteristics depending on what you choose.... it also lets you choose something you don't like.

Example: The HPS pads wear like iron, very low dust and noise.. but.. they are not very aggressive, they feel much like a stock type pad in friction level (though they resist fade very well). If you buy them thinking about a friction upgrade you might not be happy... then post bad on forums etc.

All I know is I've used their blue's and 70's racing and HP Plus (better friction) and HPS (long lasting) on the street and have been happy.

On our Fiat endurance racer a set of hawk blue's will last over 14 hours of racing and lock the fronts with no fade on a non-vented rotor... I can't say they make a garbage product.

Originally Posted by bikesandcars

... I can't say they make a garbage product.

Well there you have it. A proper review and good information from experience.

I think these forums and the stupid Internet are actually complicating our decision making practice. In times of yore, we'd drop by the ol' auto parts store and buy the needed part from the guy who drug out from the back. No research was needed, you trusted the parts guy.

Now I spend way too much time hunting for the "best" thing out there. These are stupid hours I'll never get back!

If it's a quality part and works - then be done with it.

I think these forums and the stupid Internet are actually complicating our decision making practice. In times of yore, we'd drop by the ol' auto parts store and buy the needed part from the guy who drug out from the back. No research was needed, you trusted the parts guy.

Probably kind of an unusual 1st post from a newbie but here it is:

Ok, I'm the parts guy and have been in the parts business for somewhere around 30 years including having my own successful parts business. Here's my brief 2 cents worth:

I'm not going to discuss racing or track at all. Too many variables but for street/daily driving up to and including "spirited" driving, I wholeheartedly recommend Centric Posi-Quiet pads. If anyone is wondering, no, I don't work for Centric. Yes, I do sell their products. No, I do not personally gain from recommending them. Yes, I put them on everything I own(d) such as: 1992 Jeep Cherokee, 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 2002 Chevy Astro AWD, 1990 Honda Civic, 1990 Mazda Miata, 1997 Mazda Miata (current), 1998 325i, 2002 325xi and my current 2004 330xi. Also we have 10 delivery vehicles (from Chevys to Subarus) and we put the extended wear (106 series) on all of them so yes, I have A LOT of experience with these pads.

So at this point you can either "trust the parts guy" or read on.

Why choose these pads? In summary, a superior product at a very reasonable price.

More specifically: They are made in a (original equipment required) manufacturing process known as positive mold technology which (as well as other benefits) you can read about here: http://www.centricparts.com/index.ph...d=47&Itemid=81

As stated, they are very low dust, have an excellent pedal feel, long wear and do a great job of stopping. I prefer the 106 series because I feel they stop and wear the best (even though I have 104s on my 330xi (we didn't have the 106s on the shelf when I decided to do my brakes lol)) but all three of the product groups are excellent. They also include the brake hardware :o)

The icing on the cake is that they are VERY resonably priced! Why? My guess is, Centric is and has always been more geared towards the wholesale market and spends a fraction on advertisement that companies like Wagner, Bendix and Raybestos do. On the flip side, they are not as easy to get. eBay and other online sources are your best bet unless you hunt down a wholesale distributor in your local area.

If anyone in the greater Colorado Springs area is interested in these and/or parts in general, PM me.

Cheers!!

Originally Posted by White_Knuckles

In times of yore, we'd drop by the ol' auto parts store and buy the needed part from the guy who drug out from the back. No research was needed, you trusted the parts guy.

.

It's much better than it was before the internet, especially if you own a European car in a rural area.

I would definitely trust the NAPA parts guy for an American made car part like brakes for a pickup truck, However, for anything European I have never found them knowledgeable.

I'm sorry but your general run of the mill "parts guy" knows less than we do about our vehicles, same with your average dealer mechanic...

There are great specialty shops (bmw, vw, Mercedes, etc) that cater to those brands and those guys know their stuff... but they are not general "parts guys" anyway.

Stay away from anything ceramic, hawk hps, or hawk hp+ and you will most likely be fine for pedestrian driving.

If you like to get on the brakes go for the performance friction, porterfield that Andy mentioned, cool carbon or stick with dusty oem style pads.

I believe Centric manufactures in China. PF is down south and they are really cool to deal with. I've met the cool carbon guys too but never tried them personally.

Originally Posted by athayer187

My favorite street pads are actually Porterfield R4S's. They stop well in all weather/temperatures, have a reasonable amount of dust (not dust less, but less than OEM - dust is actually a lighter color gray than most brake dust, so your wheels appear cleaner), and don't squeal much at all. I've tried everything from Performance Friction (love their -01's and -06's on the track), Hawk, Akebono, Porterfield, and OEM over the years. There is always a tradeoff, but the R4s's hit the sweet spot for me.

Also - my experience with slotted rotors is that they increase both brake dust and pad wear.

Ditto on the Porterfield R4S's. I've been using them for years with no issues.

Originally Posted by Kubica

Stay away from anything ceramic, hawk hps, or hawk hp+ and you will most likely be fine for pedestrian driving.

While I'm not a huge fan of ceramic brake pads (I seem to be in the minority) OE (virtually all brands) is becoming more and more ceramic by the day. Our BMWs and most European cars have traditionally come OE with semi-metallic pads (Textar, Jurid, ATE, Pagid etc.) as opposed to Japanese cars which have been OE ceramic (Akebono (who for all intents and purposes pioneered ceramic pads) Nissin, Aisin, Sumitomo, etc.) for decades. German cars were equipped with semi-metallics for a very simple reason: high speed (Autobahn etc.). Until fairly recent times, ceramic pads while excellent for noise free, long wear and good stopping "pedestrian driving", did not perform well in higher heat applications (cracking was frequent) which is why (again, until recently) light trucks (up to 1 ton) have been factory equipped with semi-metallics. Today things are changing. I was speaking to our Akebono rep recently and he informed me that they have been working closely with European car makers such as BMW and Mercedes (also domestic light truck mfgs.) and have developed ceramic formulas that meet or exceed their requirements as evidenced by their new "Euro" product group. Akebonos are one of, if not the most expensive factory replacement pads on the market so make no mistake, they are not approaching the market as an "economy" product. They advertise as OE (which they are on many platforms) or better.

Again, maybe this dog's getting old, but I'm not a big fan of ceramics (but I may try some Akebonos at some point as I like to be able to speak from experience) but technology is moving at breakneck speeds and it's a good idea to stay/become informed.

This all being said, ceramics may well be a viable option for you (just ask Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, etc.) depending on your needs. We sell a ton of Akebono and Posi-Quiet pads to installers that do premium brake jobs including some dealerships. In fact, two of our dealerships say the Posi-Quiet ceramics are less problematic than their own pads lol!

First in response to Kubica, the last I heard, Centric Posi-Quiet pads were manufactured by OE Quality Friction in Canada. Whether this is still true, I don't know. In fact I was curious so I went to our shelf and lo and behold, they do not state a country of origin so until I can confirm, I can't say.

So here's my 2 cents worth on China:

Up until about 20 years ago, Chinese auto parts were pretty much, garbage. But, as the US did with Japan after World War Two, we went over there and showed them how to eat our lunch

What does this translate to? Pretty much any legitimate auto parts supplier that imports parts from China uses factories that are ISO and other "international standards boards" certified so that quality is reasonably assured. Is all Chinese product high quality? Absolutely not but the world as we know it is becoming more and more dependent on Chinese goods (look at your shoes and clothes) so unless you are against Chinese products for altruistic reasons, you might as well forget it. And if altruism is your motivation, think about this: While I'm all for supporting my country's jobs and products, I feel that our government is doing everything in it's power to kill our competitiveness and is sending our jobs away. Case in point: Gov't regulations and unions have ELIMINATED the US steel industry. There is no such thing as a US made brake rotor! It's hard to support the home team when the home team isn't supporting it's self!!

Back to the matter at hand. Our Beemers are now made with TONS of Chinese and other non-German componentry and don't be fooled by brand names. Our store has lots of parts packaged by Lemfordor, Bilstein, Ate, Zimmerman, Meyle, Ruville, Brembo, Febi, etc. etc. etc. that are made in China, Turkey, Brazil, Mexico, Hungary, India, Pakistan and Israel to name a few. Very traditional lines such as BCA/National bearings and seals that have NEVER been Chinese have also now crossed the line. SKF has yet to follow.

So yep, I put Dorman window regulators and motors that are Chinese and a Behr (made in China) coolant recovery tank in the 2002 325xi I had at less for than half the cost of the factory ones. Will they last as long as the crappy original ones? Probably, but if not I can replace them again and STILL be ahead. I also did brakes on all four corners of my 2004 330xi with Centric Chinese rotors (the originals had bigger lips at 38,000 miles than Bubba Blue) and Posi-Quiet semi-metallic pads about a month ago and they are AWESOME. I drive up and down a winding mountain pass everyday (with a bit of gusto I might add ) and have never had any fade or warping.

I guess the point of my diatribe is that for me, being an anti-Chinese elitist is in terms of real world practicality, virtually impossible. I think it is tragic and catastrophic that we are doing everythig we can to strengthen a country that at the end of the day is fundamentally our enemy but if our government betrays us, I'll go wherever I have to for the best combination of quality and value..

I'm not sure how I could be more clear about Akebono ceramic pads. They don't stop the car as well OE pads so just cross them off any list right from the beginning. Do not buy. Do not advise people to buy them on an enthusiast website either.

My comment mentioning "trusting the parts guy" was basically suggesting how our buying trends have changed. My local stores, other than NAPA, are indeed scary. However, sometimes you win with local retail. I picked up a killer battery from Autozone that was way cheaper than the dealer. I didn't mean to bring up judgement of knowledge or skills parts guys may have.

Today we have more options where the ease of Internet ordering has become a favorite for me. I love the sound of the Brown Truck pulling up with a goody going thump on my porch. But I still find there's a balance between researching on-line and talking to real people. For a fun driver I have a '67 Olds Cutlass with a hot rod motor. Building it, I found a lot of strange and actually bad information from Forum enthusiasts and "experts". The local parts guys and machine shops became of much greater value for getting a successful result. Experience and knowledge always prevail whatever your source may be.

Just be cautious my friends and not jump on the first thing you read.

Originally Posted by Kubica

I'm not sure how I could be more clear about Akebono ceramic pads. They don't stop the car as well OE pads so just cross them off any list right from the beginning. Do not buy. Do not advise people to buy them on an enthusiast website either.

Do you have personal experience with the Euro formula (part# starting with EUR)?

We sell litterally hundreds of Akebono pads annually including a substantial number of the Euro pads. One of our large wholesale chains sells them exclusively for their top tier brake jobs and we have yet to receive one complaint or warranty from them. I have also sold many, many sets to other customers including end users that rave about them so I must respectfully disagree.

Originally Posted by White_Knuckles

My comment mentioning "trusting the parts guy" was basically suggesting how our buying trends have changed. My local stores, other than NAPA, are indeed scary. However, sometimes you win with local retail. I picked up a killer battery from Autozone that was way cheaper than the dealer. I didn't mean to bring up judgement of knowledge or skills parts guys may have.

Lol. I didn’t take it like that at all. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree. The traditional "parts guy" that was a reasonably reliable source of good technical information is pretty much going the way of the condor. When I was coming up, we looked up parts in books and we had to have a basic idea of what we were looking for, what it looked like and what it did. Now days if you walk into an Autozone or whatever and ask for an idle control motor, the kid with the tattoos and hardware in his face can punch a couple of buttons on a computer and sell it to you without having the vaguest idea if it looks like a crankshaft or a PCV valve much less what it does. Heaven forbid YOU don’t know what it’s called and bring your old one in as a sample. Glazed looks will be the order of the day!!

Your advice is spot on about doing comprehensive research and not taking the first word you hear (even from purported experts) as gospel.

Originally Posted by chilone

Do you have personal experience with the Euro formula (part# starting with EUR)?

We sell litterally hundreds of Akebono pads annually including a substantial number of the Euro pads. One of our large wholesale chains sells them exclusively for their top tier brake jobs and we have yet to receive one complaint or warranty from them. I have also sold many, many sets to other customers including end users that rave about them so I must respectfully disagree.

This is hilarious.

Yes I have tried them on an xi and an accord. They are a substantial downgrade to oem in stopping power.

Generic parts guys advice is a complete waste of time guys. They are just trying to sell you a product that you won't bring back to the store because they squeal or fall apart in a year, while maximizing profit.

This is an enthusiast website. You're trying to push an inferior product in front of people that wouldn't buy anything but oil and wipers for their BMW from the napa or pep boys you sell jobber parts out of. I think most of us do our own brakes, but if we didnt we most likely wouldn't use a shop that buys parts from your store either.

Originally Posted by Kubica

This is hilarious.

Yes I have tried them on an xi and an accord. They are a substantial downgrade to oem in stopping power.

Generic parts guys advice is a complete waste of time guys. They are just trying to sell you a product that you won't bring back to the store because they squeal or fall apart in a year, while maximizing profit.

This is an enthusiast website. You're trying to push an inferior product in front of people that wouldn't buy anything but oil and wipers for their BMW from the napa or pep boys you sell jobber parts out of. I think most of us do our own brakes, but if we didnt we most likely wouldn't use a shop that buys parts from your store either.

Wow! a lot of assumptions and undue hostility bro.. I am not trying to steal your obviously much coveted status here. The OP asked for info on pads that produce less dust than OE pads and I offered a couple of viable and completely appropriate suggestions. I fail to understand that because YOU don't like them, my (VERY educated) opinion is somehow negated.

How is it that knowing nothing about me you assume I am a "generic parts guy"? I have spent more than half my life in automotive and have done everything from delivery driver, counter sales, wholesale sales, purchasing, inventory management, customer relations, machinist, lower management, upper management, AR/AP, human resources, payroll, IT/network administrator, CFO and CEO. I have attended countless tech seminars, product development consortiums, toured numerous manufacturing facilities and as a VERY pertinent side note, I have also been a European parts specialist/consultant. Not to mention being in close relationships with more automotive experts that I could possibly count. I do this stuff all day, every day. Our facility is privately held and the largest, most successful operation of it's kind in Colorado Springs and we didn't get that way by being a typical Pep Boys, Autozone type of robot operated, generic chain. Where do you get your highly self elevated expertise and credibility?

I personally don't care one iota if anyone here ever buys any of the products that I have recommended but I will say that anyone that does buy parts from me has FULL, no questions asked satisfaction backing. I get maybe two to three people a YEAR that bring back parts that they aren't happy with. You know why? First, because some people are never happy with anything (shoe fit?) and second, because I know cars and parts and I don't recommend parts that I think they will be unhappy with.

Also, I know this is an enthusiast website and guess what? I joined because I'm an enthusiast. I may be new to you but I'm not new to this. There are many flavors of enthusiasts in case you are too self absorbed for that to register. Some like to track, some like to street race, some like to cruise, some like to tour and so on. I have recommended products that certain segments of this enthusiast site would be very happy with. I know this because I'm happy with them and I'm an enthusiast. Would I recommend Akebonos or Posi-Quiets for the track? Absolutely not! Would I recommend them for WHAT THE OP ASKED FOR?? Absolutely yes and if they were bought from me, I would insist he be happy with them! As far as inferior product, Really? Akebono is one of the largest, most sought after, respected and cutting edge names in brakes whose reputation is firmly rooted in OE. OE on your Accord by the way (maybe you can explain how they can be an OE downgrade when they ARE OE lol.). They also have the lowest defect rate in the industry and have over 100 people in research and development alone. You can't even get them at the big box generic stores. Please tell me and everyone else here, how you can justify saying that they make an inferior product.

Lastly, if you lived in Colorado Springs and took your Beemer to a shop to have it worked on, most likely it would be one that does buy from us.

People, beware of advise from someone that makes blanket, uninformed statements like "Stay away from anything ceramic" when that's the direction that the ENTIRE automotive industry is headed.

You may get back up on your high horse now.

Guys the reason parts stores, crappy mechanics, and Toyota drivers like ceramic pads is because you get the mediocre stopping performance straight away without having to bed them in.

Colorado springs is ok. I lived in Summit County, CO for a while. You don't want to be messing around with ceramic pads if you're ripping canyons up there.

A little more info on the Ake Euros. From what I have read, they would fit the bill perfectly for the OP. Almost all favorable reviews but as we all know, there is no "perfect pad". YMMV

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...1120553&page=2

http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=611042

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=462356

As I said, I do not have personal experience with these pads but they definitely sound worth trying and DEFINITELY are not an inferior product.

Originally Posted by Kubica

Guys the reason parts stores, crappy mechanics, and Toyota drivers like ceramic pads is because you get the mediocre stopping performance straight away without having to bed them in.

I wasn't going to reply to this because a pissing match isn't what I'm interested in but I can't in good conscience let such uninformed, baseless, misinformation go unchecked.

Ceramic pads are now the rule on most brands of new cars today. Not the exception.

I think that speaks for its self.

Okay, we all know the OP probably dashed out and picked up a set of Raybestos with Chin-Chan-Woo drilled rotors by now. The sword fight is futile.

Chilone clearly has a qualified opinion and absolutely should post his recommendations. He did not state his storefront name for any personal gain. I've been here long enough to see sponsored vendors boldly trick people with glossy photos of cheesy, knock-off parts. They rarely get challenged.

The intent of a forum discussion is to have a discussion. All contributors have something to offer and should be recognized as where they're coming from. I often lead a comment I'm about to post with: "I've read"... to qualify the statement. I'm not absolutely sure a mentioned part is sketchy but "I've read" where others didn't like it. These type of comments are weak but may inspire a buyer to research more. You also risk getting corrected quickly where an experienced enthusiast comes back with: man, are you wrong...

I've been whacked by Kubica too. Not defending his posting style but I'll say he treats all pretty much the same. I find humor in some of his thread enders that are slightly edgy yet clear. I read his responses and they, though often short and terse, are interesting, come from experience and have value. Some react to this style and take insult.

Can we consider where others are coming from before pointing a shotgun at 'em? It's about respect and our collective knowledge that makes this a fun place to visit. I welcome our new fan and enjoyed reading his retorts but realized that shouldn't be necessary. Should someone demonstrate expertise, make qualified points and show interest with a clear writing style... Bravo! Let them share their opinion without duress. If you have a strong opinion the other direction, state it as your opinion supporting why you feel that way. The purchaser reads both opinions and make their decision as - informed.

We all agree there are too many ambiguous variables, user bias, brand loyalties, etc. with parts like brake pads and engine oil. This is all about sharing and exploring options to be had. I'm glad to be able to read those options and welcome all.

chilone, I also have over 30 years of automotive experience (over 23 years of it as the Lead Prototype and Tooling Developer for a major OE supplier to the likes of GM, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, AM General, as well as Peterbuilt, Kenworth, Mack, just to name a few (I'm one of the front lines guys responsible for GM to have a missing year Corvette), and expertise and have been "whacked" by Kubica several times. I have full ceramic pads on both my '03 325xi and on my '03 330xi sport with cross-drilled rotors and stainless steel brake lines using ATE Super Blue fluid. Not a problem or complaint here. The 325xi sees spirited driving every day of the week, as I drive for work. There is no fade when they are warmed up, no noise (other than on a cold and damp day with first light brake application backing out of the driveway) and they dust very little (wheels stay clean all week long (both inside and out). Brake pads, brake rotors are like engine oil, everyone has their favorites and ones that they dislike for one reason or the other; that type of experiences, pro and con is what should be written here so that those that ask questions and for advise can read the pros and cons and make a better educated guess relating to their question.