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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 01-13-2013, 02:03 AM   #21
Reedo302
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Backup Iron Sights (BUIS) use with Optics

BUIS is any type of fixed or folding sight is used as a secondary sighting system, and used as an alternative to an optic being used as a primary sighting system. While the term "Iron Sights" is used, BUIS refers to all sights, regardless of material. Most sights now are made of aluminum, and some are made of a polymer. BUIS are a dual-plane sighting system, consisting of a rear sight aperture and a front sight post. The front post is lined up into the middle of the rear aperture, which is why it's known as a dual-plane sighting system.

The common misconception with BUIS is that they work in RELATION to optics, as opposed to working separately from optics. This is muddied by misinterpretation of different types of co-witnesses. A co-witness means that you can use your BUIS without removing the optic, as the BUIS are visible through the optic. There are two types of co-witness: Absolute and Lower 1/3. Absolute Co-witness means that the center of the reticle is directly in-line with and on the same vertical plane as the line of sight through the BUIS. A Lower 1/3 co-witness puts the line of sight of the BUIS through the lower 1/3 quadrant of the optic, below the line of sight of the reticle. The reticle sits above iron sights.





The reason why people get this mixed up and have misconceptions is because of how the absolute co-witness works in relation to the BUIS, and how people use fixed BUIS, or have folding BUIS flipped up all the time. The misconception is that since they reticle lines up in-line with the rear sight aperture and front sight, it's meant to used in conjunction with those sights. People believe that since everything generally lines up, you have to make sure that you line all three up before ripping off a shot. This essentially turns a single-plane sighting system (dot, chevron, etc) into a three-plane sighting system by inserting it in-between a dual-plane sight. The legitimate use of an absolute co-witness is to have it so that you can use the same head position and cheek weld with the optic as you would with the iron sights. It makes for a consistent head position if you spend a lot of time switching between optic and sights. Ideally, absolute co-witness should be used with a folding rear sight kept in the closed/down position so as to not obstruct the field of view any further. Additionally, sights kept up will slow down the shooter, as it tends to force people to think about the alignment of the front and rear sight, when they should only be paying attention to the reticle and nothing else. Many people are running fixed rear sights when running absolute co-witness, and this is not an ideal setup. This is also an issue, because not every sight and mount combo lines up exactly with every BUIS.

This concept of absolute co-witness then creates confusion with new shooters when they're using a Lower 1/3 co-witness, because they believe that somehow there needs to be some kind of alignment and relationship between the reticle and the sights. In reality, there should be no intentional correlation or relationship between the optic and the sights. If you are running a fixed rear sight, or you prefer to run folding BUIS in the "up" position (defeats the purpose of a folding sight, but whatever... ), you should be running a lower 1/3.

I personally do not like the Absolute Co-Witness. It's problematic and causes a lot of confusion. People always seem to have to run it with sights up, which absolutely defeats the purpose of having an optic in the first place. Why use an optic if you're going to use the sights anyways? If you use it correctly, it works fine. However, a lot of people mess it up.

Another reason why I like Lower 1/3 is because of same-plane vs offset plane sights. Not all iron sights are same-plane. Same-Plane means that the rear sight aperture is directly on the same optical plane (in line with) the front sight post. An Offset Plane is where the rear sight aperture is higher than the plane that the front sight sits on. Offset plane is done for corrected longer range trajectory, which is why the A2 rear drum sight is designed as an offset plane. The A2 sight was designed to allow the iron sights to be used out to 800m, and to be able to use without adjustment form 0-300m. If you are running an offset plane with your sights in place or up, using an absolute co-witness becomes problematic because if you look through your sights, you won't be able to use the red dot properly. If you attempt to use the reticle, it will be obstructed by the outline of the rear aperture. Aside from A2 style sights, several folding BUIS have been identified as not being same-plane.

So to summarize, here are the benefits of each:

ABSOLUTE
- Allows for an identical cheek weld between BUIS and optic


LOWER 1/3
- Allows use of fixed rear sights, so that they don't obstruct as much field of view
- Ideal for a fixed front sight post (FSP), as it reduces how much of the target will be obstructed within your field of view
- Allows for a more "heads up" position when shooting standing up, so it causes less fatigue and more situational awareness
- Allows for a slightly higher head position in the prone, which is especially important if you have gear on your front like a tactical vest or chest rig; or body armor.
- No direct correlation between optic and sights, so there is no confusion



And to finalize this portion, I would like to reiterate that regardless of what setup you use for co-witness, the reticle of the optic should have no relationship with the sights in terms of your use. When you use the optic, FORGET ABOUT THE IRON SIGHTS!! Pretend that they're not there. Do not make any attempt to use them while your optic is operational, because they shouldn't have anything to do with each other. PERIOD. FULL STOP.
You should not be using an optic to deliberately use it with iron sights. The co-witness is merely the position where there sights sit when your optic goes down and you need to look through the optical housing when using the iron sights.






BUIS Use with Magnified Optics


BUIS used with a magnified optic, like a fixed or variable magnification rifle scope or a combat gunsight like a Trijicon ACOG, Browe BCO or Elcan SpectreDR will not co-witness with those optics. This includes a no-magnification/1x scope like the Leupold Prismatic, nor flash-dot scopes like the S&B PMII Short Dot or Leupold VX-R. You will not be able to use the sights through the optic. If you elect to have have BUIS on your weapon while using a scope or gunsight, you should employ a mount with a quick-detach (QD) feature like those offered by LaRue Tactical, American Defense Mounts or GDI. This will allow you to throw one or two levers and quickly remove the scope in case it goes down, making your sights accessible. If you are using folding BUIS, they should be stored closed/down. Ideally, you should avoid using a fixed FSP when running a scope or gunsight if at all possible, as well as avoid using fixed BUIS or running the sights in the up position.
An alternative to this is to offset-mount the iron sights. Offset mounting the sights usually places the sights at a 45° angle to the top rail. To use the sights, you simply rotate the rifle 45° to the left and sight through the sights. Knights Armament, SureFire, Diamondhead and XS Sights (among others) all make offset iron sights. It should be noted that offset irons are not wrong-hand (southpaw/lefty) friendly, as they mount to the right of the optic and rail.










See here for more on offset irons:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...on-sights-for/


The alternative to this is to omit iron sights and run with a stacked or offset mini red dot. You can mount mini red dot sights like the Trijicon RMR or Leupold DeltaPoint on top of an optic, on top of one of the rings, or mounted along the tube of the optic. There is also the option of a 45° offset mount off of the rail, similar to the offset BUIS mounting. If you run a magnified optic, this is a more preferred method to run unless you are actually going into combat with the optic. At that point, run all three if you can. The offset 45° or stacked red dot option is wrong-hand compatible as well.



Offset DeltaPoint on GGG mount:








Offset Aimpoint T-1 on a LaRue Tactical offset QD mount:









"Stacked" Optic in the form of a Trijicon TA31-ECOS with a DOCTER optic mini red dot on top.








Trijicon TA31-ECOS with Trijicon RMR red dot. Note the additional integrated emergency iron sight on the left side of the optic.









Leupold DAGR (Dual Aperture Gunsight Riflescope) System, also known as the MDNS ECOS-O system (Miniature Day/Night Sight Enhanced Combat Optical Sight – Optimized) , which uses the Mark6 3-18x44 M5C2 TReMor2 with stacked Aimpoint T-1.

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Old 01-13-2013, 12:45 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
Backup Iron Sights (BUIS) use with Optics


Leupold DAGR (Dual Aperture Gunsight Riflescope) System, also known as the MDNS ECOS-O system (Miniature Day/Night Sight Enhanced Combat Optical Sight – Optimized) , which uses the Mark6 3-18x44 M5C2 TReMor2 with stacked Aimpoint T-1.

.....any word on price on the DAGR? Unable to find price via a quick google search..
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:03 PM   #23
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.....any word on price on the DAGR? Unable to find price via a quick google search..
The scope is about $4600 i think, aimpoint is $600, mount few hundred probably looking at $5500.

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Old 01-13-2013, 01:15 PM   #24
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You probably won't. It's not commercially available, and likely won't be until later this year or even next year. The Mark8 1.1-8x CQBSS took close to a year and a half to hit the commercial market. The current estimate for the DAGR is around $3300, but that's based off of MSRP calculations.
The only negative part of this scope is that it runs the worthless TReMor2 reticle. Somehow Horus was able to sell the Army on their nonsensical reticles, and now the Army is forcing it down the throats of all their snipers, despite many not wanting it. Leupold is going to town with the Horus reticles, which is sad. The biggest abominations they have are the fact that A.) the Mark8 CQBSS fire-dot only works with the Horus H27D reticle, and not the M-TMR reticle, and B.) the Mark6 3-18x is not offered with a TMR or M-TMR, and instead only with BDC reticles (CMR-W 5.56 and 7.62) or the Horus TReMor2. Leupold is a good company, but their tactical division has stated that they have little regard for the commercial, LE and GOV markets since they make so much off the military. As such, they build to appease the military, not anyone else.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:27 PM   #25
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The scope is about $4600 i think, aimpoint is $600, mount few hundred probably looking at $5500.

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No, I'm not talking about the dipped-in-gold version. I'm talking the black one in the photo...

Ok, on a serious note, nevermind. lol
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:08 PM   #26
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Reedo, you bring a rediculous wealth of information and knowledge to this thread. Thank you so much

Topic: AimPoint Comp M2 vs M3 vs M4

After Reedo's post, I've narrowed my optic choices down to the AimPoint PRO vs AimPoint Comp M4. My question is, is the M4 worth the extra money or is the PRO sufficient? This will be my rifle that I want to bet my life on so I would definitely buy the M4 if the difference in price is worth it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:11 PM   #27
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The convenience of the M4 or M4S is with the use of a AA battery as opposed to the 1/3N lithium battery used in the PRO. Otherwise, the M4/S has 80k hours of battery life while the PRO has 50k hrs.
I use a PRO on my duty rifle, and I have the M4S on my primary SBR at home. The QRP2 mount that comes on the PRO is sufficient and good quality, and given the fact that it's included with the optic, it's a great value. The M4 is $300 more for the same mount. I don't exactly think it's worth the extra cost. Both are die-hard reliable.

I personally like my M4S better than the PRO, but it's because of the LaRue mount I have on it (I got my M4S without a mount), and because of the AA battery. I'm not the biggest fan of the factory QRP2 mount because it has a tendency to loosen up under vibration. The M4S is a frickin' tank, and it has the weight to prove it. It's NOT a light optic. The PRO is much lighter.
Have you ever considered looking at a T1?
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:24 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
The convenience of the M4 or M4S is with the use of a AA battery as opposed to the 1/3N lithium battery used in the PRO. Otherwise, the M4/S has 80k hours of battery life while the PRO has 50k hrs.
I use a PRO on my duty rifle, and I have the M4S on my primary SBR at home. The QRP2 mount that comes on the PRO is sufficient and good quality, and given the fact that it's included with the optic, it's a great value. The M4 is $300 more for the same mount. I don't exactly think it's worth the extra cost. Both are die-hard reliable.

I personally like my M4S better than the PRO, but it's because of the LaRue mount I have on it (I got my M4S without a mount), and because of the AA battery. I'm not the biggest fan of the factory QRP2 mount because it has a tendency to loosen up under vibration. The M4S is a frickin' tank, and it has the weight to prove it. It's NOT a light optic. The PRO is much lighter.
Have you ever considered looking at a T1?
Sold me on the M4S with LaRue mount. And I've thought of the T1 but i've read the 4 MOA leads to some trouble shooting at 100+ yard targets and that most people prefer to the 2 MOA of the M4. I've also read that the weight savings isn't really noticeable unless 1. It's an extremely light-weight build where every ounce counts OR 2. You prefer to mount the optic far up on the rifle/on hand-guard rail. Seems that the M4/M4S are also a little more durable so i'm just going to go with that. As always, thanks for your input!

Also, on a related yet different topic:

Topic: Magnifier + Optic Combos

Which magnifier+mount would you recommend for the M4? I see AimPoint makes their own 3x magnifier but wanted to see if you recommended an alternative.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:39 PM   #29
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Both the T-1 and H-1 are available with a 2 MOA dot. Unless you are strictly bench shooting, the weight savings of the micro will be nice since you are also talking about adding a magnifier and mount. Also, the Micro will take anything that you can dish out, you are not going to break it.

Personally, I use a vortex 3x magnifier in a LaRue FTS mount. It's a less expensive alternative to an Aimpoint or Eotech magnifier, and my eyes could not distinguish a difference in clarity in the glass between them. I need to say that I've never used it in a class though, as I really only use it for zeroing.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:23 PM   #30
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I've tried several magnifiers, and the Aimpoint is among the best I've used in terms of both optical qulity and outright durability. Several of the accessory brands like Mako have pretty poor optical quality. I have not tried the Vortex though. I currently have an Aimpoint and it's very high quality. Regardless of what you decide, 3x is about the max that you can go with those sights for magnification. Some companies have made up to 7x, but the optical quality on them is pretty poor. Auxiliary magnifiers have a small exit pupil and a small objective lens, so if you increase magnification, light transmission will go down and the sight picture will get dark and lose resolution and color.

Magnifiers are a mixed bag. They're excellent for prepared shots or precision shots. When you're shooting quickly from a combat position, like standing or kneeling, at ranges of 25-50yds, using a magnifier will slow you down. It causes you to linger on target longer waiting for that perfect shot, instead of utilizing your first best sight picture. There are ups and downs to having a magnifier. Also, weight is an issue.

Below is a picture of my current 11.5" SBR with an M4S in a LaRue QD mount, with an Aimpoint 3x magnifier behind it in a LaRue FTS mount. This adds a LOT of weight to the rifle. I don't know the exact weight, but it's probably between 1-1.5lbs. Weight does make a difference.

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Old 01-17-2013, 11:50 PM   #31
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At seabronze how is durability a question with eotech - military grade. All the high end military grade optics are durable you get what you pay for
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:06 AM   #32
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Did you read Reedo's post or did you skip over it?
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:15 AM   #33
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Can somebody tell me about the difference between an aimpoint vs eotech vs scope vs trijicon



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Old 04-19-2013, 09:33 PM   #34
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So many good posts...this thread should be a sticky.

I'm in need of more advice gents. My 8.2 300 blackout upper will be arriving soon and in addition to a BCG and CH, I'm also going to need an optic.

Looking for a kinda cheap, but quality option. So I'm looking at either a used eotech or aimpoint. I don't have an eotech yet and I've stayed away from them in the past because of my astigmatism. But the way I look at it now is that I likely won't be engaging targets with any sort of real precision with this setup, so I'm not too concerned with it being crystal clear. If I go with another aimpoint, I'd likely be looking at another micro to save weight.

So i guess I don't really need advice on the aimpoint; I do on the eotech. I'm going to be on the lookout for one on arfcom in the $300 range. Are there any models I should avoid like the plague? I realize that one of the newer ones like the xps would be ideal, but that's simply not what I'm looking for here. There definitely is a budget to consider

Thoughts?
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:38 PM   #35
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Aimpoint pro $365 from aim surplus
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:40 PM   #36
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Official Optics Discussion Thread

Hopefully I'll get to go zero my pro at silver eagle this weekend


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Old 04-19-2013, 10:48 PM   #37
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Aimpoint pro $365 from aim surplus
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Not too big for the small gun?? Whats the difference between a Pro and an M4, etc.?

EDIT: Forget the second part...I didn't read above lol
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:00 AM   #38
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If you get an EOTech, the XPS/EXPS models are better than the others. However, look for one that hasn't seen a lot of use in dusty or gritty climates like deserts, because grit gets into the windage and elevation adjustment screw threads and jacks them up. Compressed air clears this out, but just something to look at.

The Aimpoint PRO is the CompM3 in the QRP2 mount. It's not too heavy of an optic, and it's definitely lighter than the M4. I likely won't get an M4/M4S again because of the weight, but I also won't get rid of the one I have because it's pretty sweet. Having used the PRO for over a year now, I really like it. I think that it's a good compromise in that you get Aimpoint reliability and simplicity, and low cost, and the only problem you have is that it's heavier than a Micro. The PRO is the same weight as the EOTech EXPS, so weight wise you're not losing anything by getting an EO. Yeah, the standard XPS is 3oz lighter, but the mount for the XPS sucks.
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:46 AM   #39
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I wouldn't recommend any line of the Eotech other than the XPS/EXPS series.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:15 AM   #40
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Reedo you the man! I love reading your posts and watching your vids. You should seriously write articles for Guns and Ammo.

my Aimpoint T-1 2MOA
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