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Old 01-15-2013, 07:10 PM   #121
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Remember when Obama used a memorial service for the deceased children to politicize gun control and use the opportunity to further his public ratings, when he should have been saying nice, compassionate remarks about the children ?
He should have been saying nice, compassionate remarks about poor guns and their owners.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:20 PM   #122
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That is the real problem, you're 100% correct! But lets face facts here, you, nor many of the law makers give 1 fvck because 1 black gang member killed another!
Don't really care about color but always happy to hear when gang members kill each other. Wish it happened more often
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I agree with JonJon.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:21 PM   #123
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You cannot ban an AR15 without banning traditional rifles. For all intents and purposes they're the same thing. Even the argument for banning high capacity magazines is flawed in my opinion. Because unless you ban the practice of reloading it seems rather pointless. Hell... even banning automatics is flawed to some extent. It doesn't take a trained person long to unload a semi-automatic. And a trained person firing well-place individual shots is more of a threat than a novice in full auto mode who empties an entire magazine in a matter of a seconds. Congratulations... you hit the same person 30 times. I think he's dead.
The only true way to stop gun violence is to eradicate all guns from existence. Nothing Congress is proposing would have stopped any of the mass shootings in recent memory. Hell, the most deadly school shooting was VaTech and only hand guns were used. The deadliest mass killing at a school was done using TNT.

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I would agree that the focus on ARs is a bit of a red herring that perhaps diverts from other steps that might be taken to curb gun violence, injuries and death. Yes, in some broad sense, ARs are nothing but a subtype of rifle but a rifle nonetheless (though I guess the same could be said of machine guns, or even cannons being but reeeeally big rifles). Can useful distinctions be made between, say, an AR15 and a Winchester bolt action or semi automatic hunting rifle? Yes, I think so but again, perhaps these finer distinctions are more distracting than useful for the larger discussion and perhaps ought to be shelved in the short term.

That all said, not all, or probably even most, pro-gun control people necessarily anti-gun, much less wanting to ban guns outright. Too often I think the NRA and many pro-gun supporters rely too much on shrill slippery-slope arguments where in fact there is a broad middle-ground to be explored. Any gun regulation is NOT some inexorable first step to total abolition of all guns by private citizens.
Middle ground is allowing people to continue to legally own 223 ARs. The problem pro gun people have with anti gun people is the anti gun people believe middle ground is simply taking away ARs when it makes no sense at all. There is not one logical reason to ban assault rifles when hand guns kill 98% more people.

When Congress proposes something that will actually prevent bad people from getting a gun, they will be on board.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:14 AM   #124
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Not sure if this should be in a separate thread... but New York's latest gun legislation is ridiculous. People who are a threat to themselves and others are less likely to seek professional help out of fear that they might be stuck on some blacklist that the State compiles. The same can be said about current firearm owners of AR'esque carbines that have higher capacity magazines.

Nothing makes people feel safer than being stuck on lists.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:19 AM   #125
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Not sure if this should be in a separate thread... but New York's latest gun legislation is ridiculous. People who are a threat to themselves and others are less likely to seek professional help out of fear that they might be stuck on some blacklist that the State compiles. The same can be said about current firearm owners of AR'esque carbines that have higher capacity magazines.

Nothing makes people feel safer than being stuck on lists.
I heard a psychiatrist say that he doesn't like that part of the legislation. Many patients talk about self-harm and some talk about harming others. That's why they're seeing psychiatrist. He thought it was a breach of confidentiality and would be very ineffective since predicting behavior is so difficult.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:23 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by casino is no lie View Post
Not sure if this should be in a separate thread... but New York's latest gun legislation is ridiculous. People who are a threat to themselves and others are less likely to seek professional help out of fear that they might be stuck on some blacklist that the State compiles. The same can be said about current firearm owners of AR'esque carbines that have higher capacity magazines.

Nothing makes people feel safer than being stuck on lists.

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I heard a psychiatrist say that he doesn't like that part of the legislation. Many patients talk about self-harm and some talk about harming others. That's why they're seeing psychiatrist. He thought it was a breach of confidentiality and would be very ineffective since predicting behavior is so difficult.
Never thought about it from that angle, makes perfect sense.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:46 AM   #127
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Wasn't the AR15 left in the trunk anyway?
Answering that question truthfully would require basic logic and facts...so please don't ask that question. Just think about the children! :p

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Old 01-16-2013, 12:22 PM   #128
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FYI, below are the 23 Executive Actions/Orders Obama released regarding curbing gun violence:

Gun Violence Reduction Executive Actions

Today, the President is announcing that he and the Administration will:
1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.
2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.
3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.
4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.
5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.
6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.
7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.
8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).
9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.
10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.
11. Nominate an ATF director.
12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.
13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.
14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.
15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies.
16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.
17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.
19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.
20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.
21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.
22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.
23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:26 PM   #129
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Don't really care about color but always happy to hear when gang members kill each other. Wish it happened more often
You should just LOVE Chicago then.

and

they have some of the harshest gun control laws in the nation
(next to NY now)

I look for the gun deaths to disappear in NY very soon.
Murder is a crime, let's ban murders.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:27 PM   #130
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Per the previous post, nothing in there strikes me a particularly radical or anything, mostly rather mundane, practical and pragmatic things really, but then, a POTUS can only do so much using executive orders anyway, so no surprise there.

As for his proposed legislation, which I don't have the details of at hand, they are just that, proposals and it would be up to Congress to actual enact anything. There's a decent chance the House GOP will bottle up any legislation anyway, even with changing public opinion regarding stricter gun control, so perhaps that will have to wait for the next inevitable school/theater/wherever mass shooting of innocents sway opinion and votes enough.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:34 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
FYI, below are the 23 Executive Actions/Orders Obama released regarding curbing gun violence:

Gun Violence Reduction Executive Actions

Today, the President is announcing that he and the Administration will:
1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.
2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.
3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.
4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.
5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.
6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.
7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.
8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).
9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.
10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.
11. Nominate an ATF director.
12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.
13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.
14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.
15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies.
16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.
17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.
19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.
20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.
21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.
22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.
23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.
Ill give it to Obama on this one, that's nor a bad list... Except for some privacy issues. There still seems to be the issue on assault weapon bans. Maybe he realizes thats not the battle to fight.

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Old 01-16-2013, 12:41 PM   #132
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Murder is a crime, let's ban murders.
Already done.

Perhaps now to address a major means (guns) for committing so much murder so easily, readily and efficiently.

If simply more guns were the answer, then shouldn't we, one of the most gun-besotted countries in the world then logically have one of the lowest gun violence rates in the world rather than the highest? This approach seems to have turned logic and data on its head.

I haven't yet heard a cogent argument explaining how yet more guns would suddenly, somehow, result in a more beneficial effect than has the vast number of guns already in circulation.

Is there some critical ownership-level rate we have not yet reached that would reverse this curve and eventually result in gun violence rates more in line with far lower rates of every other advanced first world country (rather than the third world rates we now see)?
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:53 PM   #133
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Well I still have my guns.

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14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.

Who does Obama think he is? Issuing a memorandum directing the CDC to research the causes and prevention of gun violence. This gun grabbing rights violator is on a tyrannical rampage.....what? wait a minute...

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Old 01-16-2013, 01:16 PM   #134
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I think the final outcome will really only piss off everyone. Not restrictive enough and too restrictive to some.

Realistically there will be banning of large magazines (Clips). Stronger background checks, including gun shows. Tighter regulation on "Assault" type weapons..And beyond that.. not much more.
Yep.. What I said..when this tread was started.. really not much!
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:28 PM   #135
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Who does Obama think he is? Issuing a memorandum directing the CDC to research the causes and prevention of gun violence. This gun grabbing rights violator is on a tyrannical rampage.....what? wait a minute...
What in the fvck!?
From the mid- 1980s to the mid-1990s, the CDC conducted original, peer-reviewed research into gun violence, including questions such as whether people who had guns in their homes gained protection from the weapons. (The answer, researchers found, was no. Homes with guns had a nearly three times greater risk of homicide and a nearly five times greater risk of suicide than those without, according to a 1993 study in the New England Journal of Medicine.)
But in 1996, the NRA, with the help of Congressional leaders, moved to suppress such information and to block future federal research into gun violence, [Dr. Mark Rosenberg, president of the Task Force for Global Health and director of the CDC's Center for Injury Prevention and Control from 1994 to 1999] said.

An amendment to an appropriations bill cut $2.6 million from the CDC’s budget, exactly the amount the agency’s injury prevention center had previously spent on gun research. The money was returned to the agency later, but targeted for brain injury trauma research instead.

In addition, the statute that governs CDC funding stipulated that none of the funds made available to the agency can be used in whole or in part “to advocate or promote gun control.”

While that did not specifically prohibit firearms research, the language was ambiguous enough to alarm CDC officials and stifle scientists interested in gun data, said Stephen Teret, director for the Center for Law and the Public’s Health at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

“CDC overreacted to that statement and became more reluctant to fund anything dealing with guns, even the traditional epidemiological research, so there was a chilling effect,” Teret said.

The NRA attacked some scientists, trying to discredit their research, endangering their jobs and even threatening their families, Rosenberg claimed.

“These were not mild campaigns,” he said. “When the NRA comes after you, they come after you with both barrels.” http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...-research?lite
Wow...
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:30 PM   #136
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:40 PM   #137
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What in the fvck!?The NRA attacked some scientists, trying to discredit their research, endangering their jobs and even threatening their families, Rosenberg claimed.

"These were not mild campaigns," he said. "When the NRA comes after you, they come after you with both barrels." http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...-research?lite
Wow...
That is some seriously messed up stuff right there.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:55 PM   #138
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