A BIG part of the gun problem...

Originally Posted by joeski3d

It's a question of responsibility JJ. If you feel punished because you report property of yours being stolen I honestly don't know what to tell you. That's actually kind of sad.
.

Let's make it illegal for a person to not report going through a stop sign. If a person is found to have broken a law and not reported it, they should face extra charges. You aren't a believer in the 5th Amendment either huh?

Originally Posted by joeski3d

If you don't notice a gun of yours has gone missing then perhaps you shouldn't be in possession of such a thing.

Again... save the drama. What about the guy living on a 500 acre farm, no kids and no reason to lock a gun up? With 100 guns in his collection and no reason to check on them more than yearly a couple get stolen. You want to make him a criminal for someone breaking in while he is milking a cow and steals them?

You liberals always have it in common.... punish the innocent people and cuddle the criminals
ITT: you and busa have outlined half a dozen ways to punish an innocent person and zero ways to stop criminals

Originally Posted by JonJon

Again, save the drama. I of course don't support firearms in the hands of people that mean to do harm. That said, I am realistic and understand that it's going to happen no matter what we do.

I too am realistic that gun related homicides are going to happen. But I also believe that there are measures that should be taken that would limit the ability for people to keep their gun possession secret. They should be as easily traced as cars.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

It's a bit mystifying really. People get upset when others suggest we take bigger steps in being responsible for things that others tend to misuse to do great harm to others... then balk at obvious remedies to major gaps in the system.

I just can't find the logic behind JJ's criticism here.

it's called small penis big gun syndrome. usually affects white southern males and those with low critical thinking iq

Originally Posted by joeski3d

I too am realistic that gun related homicides are going to happen. But I also believe that there are measures that should be taken that would limit the ability for people to keep their gun possession secret. They should be as easily traced as cars.

Putting aside the fact that registration is infringement, what does it do to prevent or solve crime?

You can require me to register my guns, force me to take a picture of myself holding them next to a present day newspaper, embed my fingerprints in the stock with hot wax, genetically infuse my DNA into the barrel and oil the gun with my blood for tracing purposes...

Someone steals it from my house, disappears into the night and kills you, how will any of the above have prevented that or solved your murder?
The only thing it does is connect the firearm used in the murder to ME (the innocent person). Now I have to spend time, money and stress clearing my name

Originally Posted by JonJon

Again... save the drama. What about the guy living on a 500 acre farm, no kids and no reason to lock a gun up? With 100 guns in his collection and no reason to check on them more than yearly a couple get stolen. You want to make him a criminal for someone breaking in while he is milking a cow and steals them?

That's quite a stretch for a hypothetical. I know farmers. Texas ones that I'm related to. They have guns. They lock them up.They don't causally leave them lying around the farm like lawn ornaments.

Originally Posted by JonJon

You liberals always have it in common....

Originally Posted by JonJon

punish the innocent people and cuddle the criminals

That's one of those BS bitter talking head soundbites. How is letting the ATF take care of it's responsibilities punishing the innocent people and cuddling criminals?

Originally Posted by JonJon

Putting aside the fact that registration is infringement

how so?

Originally Posted by JonJon

I have many. I don't check up on them daily. If one is stolen today, a person might not notice until tomorrow. The reality is my guns are very secure because of having kids. Millions of others in different situations (LARGE collections where it would be easy to not notice or unlocked since no kids would be different).
It's very understandable to say a stolen gun might go unnoticed for a day/week for some people.

Sure, I can understand that. But you don't think, upon discovery, that a person should be required to report a missing or stolen gun?

Originally Posted by joeski3d

That's one of those BS bitter talking head soundbites. How is letting the ATF take care of it's responsibilities punishing the innocent people and cuddling criminals?

Because even with a nationwide database of registered firearms, from law abiding citizens, the criminal that did not register his weapon, shoots someone, and they die. They find the gun in a dumpster, or not at all, but start looking around the ballistic evidence and it points to your gun. Now you are the criminal for the time being, and the real killer gets away. It would allow a breach of the 4th amendment based on probable cause (which really wasn't there), cost you time and money proving your story, and yet the actual criminal that stole your gun, has already committed crimes with it.

How are you not seeing this? Making a law that affects EVERYONE will only truly affect those that would follow it.

Originally Posted by badfast

Sure, I can understand that. But you don't think, upon discovery, that a person should be required to report a missing or stolen gun?

Depends. There are many different scenarios I can think of where reporting it stolen, would turn a family member into a criminal, when an honest mistake was made.

Why is it the governments business anyway?

Originally Posted by kaput

How are you not seeing this? Making a law that affects EVERYONE will only truly affect those that would follow it.

I'm sure your worst case scenario may pop up from time to time if all legal gun acquisitions were registered. Our legal system is flawed. But registering all gun sales would certainly put a dent in guns finding their way to the streets illegally. And one can only surmise that fewer illegal guns would result in fewer homicides.

Originally Posted by JonJon

Putting aside the fact that registration is infringement, what does it do to prevent or solve crime?

You can require me to register my guns, force me to take a picture of myself holding them next to a present day newspaper, embed my fingerprints in the stock with hot wax, genetically infuse my DNA into the barrel and oil the gun with my blood for tracing purposes...

Someone steals it from my house, disappears into the night and kills you, how will any of the above have prevented that or solved your murder?
The only thing it does is connect the firearm used in the murder to ME (the innocent person). Now I have to spend time, money and stress clearing my name

1) they should be required to be locked and secured
2) if they are stolen, you should be required to report them so within a reasonable amount of time
3) the penalties for people even possessing guns illegally should be much stricter. 10 years no questions asked if you possess an illegal gun whether you use it or not
4) are you upset about having to register your car? is that an infringement?

Originally Posted by joeski3d

I'm sure your worst case scenario may pop up from time to time if all legal gun acquisitions were registered. Our legal system is flawed. But registering all gun sales would certainly put a dent in guns finding their way to the streets illegally. And one can only surmise that fewer illegal guns would result in fewer homicides.

There is no such thing as an illegal gun. No offense, but I believe you should understand the terminology and the subject before having an opinion on it.

What you actually meant to say was...

"And one can only surmise that fewer persons obtaining their guns illegally, and then using them for crimes would result in fewer homicides."

And this is just not the case.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_perce..._licensed_guns

So, in issues like Sandy Hook, the weapons were stolen (crime 1) used to kill the owner (crime 2), transported illegally (crime 3), used to kill 26 other people (crimes 4 through 29) and then left out at a crime scene. The guns were registered, but the criminal broke several laws to commit the crime. This goes against most data. VT, the guns were purchased legally. Columbine, there were over 20 violations before they entered the school, not counting conspiracy.

There is no data to support either side in this, but making every person pay a tax to own something would be unfair to all those that are not criminals. Further to the point, even if all guns were registered, only the ones used in crimes that were acquired illegally would be the problem. What would that do to increase the chances of catching the guy. He has no trace on the weapon, no registration.

Originally Posted by 217Bimmer

1) they should be required to be locked and secured
2) if they are stolen, you should be required to report them so within a reasonable amount of time
3) the penalties for people even possessing guns illegally should be much stricter. 10 years no questions asked if you possess an illegal gun whether you use it or not
4) are you upset about having to register your car? is that an infringement?

There is no such thing as an illegal gun.

How many times must it be said? It is hard to take you seriously when you can't even get the terminology right.

Originally Posted by JonJon

A law making it a CRIME to not report a lost or stolen gun ONLY makes an otherwise law abiding person a criminal. Again......... punishing the innocent people. You are essentially punishing me for someone stealing from me.

What if my property is stolen and I don't notice it. Then I'm arrested for failure to report it. How on earth is that fair or productive?

It's not the governments business what I own or do not own, nor is it their business what is stolen from me or not unless I feel the need to report it.

I agree it is responsible to report a stolen gun, but not to make it a crime to fail to do so.

In other words you're an irresponsible person because everything you've just said up until that point would lead anyone to believe that you wouldn't.

i find it funny how the same people that cry for tougher gun laws also cry foul when people want more checks to recive welfare or other government aid deeming them unconstitutional. i am all for stricter background checks and feel it's dumb to walk into a walmart and walk out with a fvcking grenade launcher 6 minutes later. i also would like to see some tougher guidelines as to who is eligible to receive my tax dollars. at least i'm consistent.

Originally Posted by kaput

There is no such thing as an illegal gun. No offense, but I believe you should understand the terminology and the subject before having an opinion on it.

Well... you're wrong. There is such a thing. And it's not about the object... it's how it's acquired.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns....ce/trace.shtml

What you are describing is commonly known as illegal guns. It's how what you are describing is referred. This isn't a semantics issue.

If Mrs Lanza was alive today she may face some legal battles about how irresponsible she was with her guns which allowed her son to gain possession of them and use them illegally. And rightfully so.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

Well... you're wrong. There is such a thing. And it's not about the object... it's how it's acquired.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns....ce/trace.shtml

What you are describing is commonly known as illegal guns. It's how what you are describing is referred. This isn't a semantics issue.

Only in the world of politics, is there a term, created by officials to make something sound scary.

Guess what? Assault Rifles have been banned since 1986, and those pesky "assault weapons" are nothing more than another made up term but politicians to scare people into thinking something that does not matter.

I can think of one instance where you could call a gun illegal. A manufacturer makes a full auto weapon with the only intention to sell the firearm to a private citizen, without a license to do so. That gun would be illegal to make and sell. Other than that, the gun is not illegal, the person is acquiring it illegally.

Look, you and I both know assault rifles are not the issue. So let's drop that from the discussion.

The fact remains, people who want to can easily get their hands on untraceable weapons. Why would they do this? Most likely for reasons other than peace, harmony or just avoiding some paperwork. They are doing so because some dealers don't give a crap and are looking to make a quick buck without the work. They know full well that they aren't going to be prosecuted because the ATF no longer has balls or teeth.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

Look, you and I both know assault rifles are not the issue. So let's drop that from the discussion.

The fact remains, people who want to can easily get their hands on untraceable weapons. Why would they do this? Most likely for reasons other than peace, harmony or just avoiding some paperwork. They are doing so because some dealers don't give a crap and are looking to make a quick buck without the work. They know full well that they aren't going to be prosecuted because the ATF no longer has balls or teeth.

They're afraid the Government will have a list of names and address of people to eliminate before they do a take over.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

Look, you and I both know assault rifles are not the issue. So let's drop that from the discussion.

The fact remains, people who want to can easily get their hands on untraceable weapons. Why would they do this? Most likely for reasons other than peace, harmony or just avoiding some paperwork. They are doing so because some dealers don't give a crap and are looking to make a quick buck without the work. They know full well that they aren't going to be prosecuted because the ATF no longer has balls or teeth.

I can agree to that, except the percentage of person obtaining these weapons is so low, that if the democratic congress would elect a leader for the ATF, then they could take care of it. Maybe looking at inventory vs sales would be a place to start, but registration would not stop it. Nothing will.