A BIG part of the gun problem...

Originally Posted by kaput

I can agree to that, except the percentage of person obtaining these weapons is so low, that if the democratic congress would elect a leader for the ATF, then they could take care of it. Maybe looking at inventory vs sales would be a place to start, but registration would not stop it. Nothing will.

The problem is Tiahrt Amendment won't allow for the ATF to do that. Hence, this thread.

Originally Posted by casino is no lie

They're afraid the Government will have a list of names and address of people to eliminate before they do a take over.

Yea. Paranoia runs deep.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

Yea. Paranoia runs deep.

They treat the Government as an inanimate object. How easily they forget it's fellow Americans who comprise it.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

The problem is Tiahrt Amendment won't allow for the ATF to do that. Hence, this thread.

Actually the amendment explicitly states that congress has to appoint, and since the congress is controlled, and has been for 6 years, the blame falls all on the left for not pushing this in the wake of the SH shooting, but also falls on the right for stalling.

When can we just clean house, and impose term limits?

Originally Posted by kaput

There is no such thing as an illegal gun.

How many times must it be said? It is hard to take you seriously when you can't even get the terminology right.

illegally possessed gun. happy. douchefvck

Originally Posted by 217Bimmer

illegally possessed gun. happy. douchefvck

No, but it is a start. Love the name calling by the way. It's a great color on you.

Originally Posted by kaput

Because even with a nationwide database of registered firearms, from law abiding citizens, the criminal that did not register his weapon, shoots someone, and they die. They find the gun in a dumpster, or not at all, but start looking around the ballistic evidence and it points to your gun. Now you are the criminal for the time being, and the real killer gets away. It would allow a breach of the 4th amendment based on probable cause (which really wasn't there), cost you time and money proving your story, and yet the actual criminal that stole your gun, has already committed crimes with it.

How are you not seeing this? Making a law that affects EVERYONE will only truly affect those that would follow it.

you think you aren't going to get investigated should your REGISTERED car get stolen and run over a bunch of people or used in a getaway and then abandoned?

if your gun is stolen, you have failed as a responsible gun owner. it is your absolute duty as a responsible gun owner to report a gun as stolen.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

More than half of the firearms traced in crimes come from just 1 percent of the nation's licensed gun stores, but federal agents rarely check to make sure these stores are complying with gun laws, a new study finds.

According to data from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, approximately 1 percent of the nation's gun stores are the source of 57 percent of the firearms traced to crimes. It took the Washington-based lobbyist group Americans for Gun Safety six years and three lawsuits to get the names of the gun stores that sell a disproportionate number of the guns traced to crimes.

The group's study found that just 120 dealers in 22 states sold nearly 55,000 guns linked to crime in five years.

read more:
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129253&page=1

How Tiahrt Harms Law Enforcement
While some components of the Tiahrt Amendments were improved in 2007 and 2009, several damaging provisions continue to tie the hands of law enforcement.

NICS background check records are still destroyed within 24 hours:
The Tiahrt Amendments require the Justice Department to destroy the record of a buyer whose NICS background check was approved within 24 hours. This makes it harder to catch law-breaking gun dealers who falsify their records, and it makes it more difficult to identify and track straw purchasers who buy guns on behalf of criminals who wouldn't be able to pass a background check.

ATF still does not have the power to require dealer inventory checks to detect lost and stolen guns:
While dealers must notify ATF if they discover that guns from their inventories have been lost or stolen, the Tiahrt Amendments prevent ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct annual physical inventory checks to detect losses and thefts. ATF reported that in 2007 it found 30,000 guns missing from dealer inventories based on its inspection of just 9.3% of gun dealers.

State and local authorities are still restricted from using trace data to fully investigate corrupt gun dealers and traffickers:
While the FY 2010 appropriations language restores full access to crime gun trace data for state and local law enforcement, the Tiahrt Amendments continue to restrict what state and local law enforcement can do with trace data they have gathered. For example, state and local law enforcement are still prohibited from using trace data in civil proceedings to suspend or revoke the license of a gun dealer who was caught breaking the law.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...the-boom---atf

As always, stats are not complete.

How many guns did they sell in total?

The top 120 "crime dealers" are probably the top 120 gun sales companies in general.

In otherwords, what is the ratio of good vs bad gun sales by these 120 dealers?

Originally Posted by GlockMan

As always, stats are not complete.

How many guns did they sell in total?

The top 120 "crime dealers" are probably the top 120 gun sales company in general.

In otherwords, what is the ratio of good vs bad gun sales by these 120 dealers?

Good questions. Unfortunately, due to the Tiahrt amendment, even the ATF can't really be sure. But they do know that guns are not being sold as the laws dictate... and there is little or no penalty for doing so.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

It won't end questionable gun sources for sure... but it would be a great start. And I believe a responsible gun owner would report a stolen gun as soon as the theft was realized.

I reported one of my shotguns right away when it was stolen out of a storage facility a few years back. Does that make me responsible?

Originally Posted by bimmerfan08

I reported one of my shotguns right away when it was stolen out of a storage facility a few years back. Does that make me responsible?

Well, I don't know you personally but it would suggest as such.

+1 responsibility point for you sir.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

Well, I don't know you personally but it would suggest as such.

+1 responsibility point for you sir.

Unfortunately nothing can be done unless the gun is tied to a crime. But my hands are washed clean at least.

Originally Posted by bimmerfan08

I reported one of my shotguns right away when it was stolen out of a storage facility a few years back. Does that make me responsible?

no, you are an irresponsible gun owner for storing a gun in a storage facility.

Originally Posted by badfast

Sure, I can understand that. But you don't think, upon discovery, that a person should be required to report a missing or stolen gun?

NO. Is it responsible to do so? Maybe
There are cases where I might not want to report it. What if someone stole my gun (or anything else) and told me he knows where I live, where my kids go to school and what my 5 year looks like. If I report it stolen, he'll kill her.
I absolutely wouldn't report it.

Most cases you'd want to report it, but other you might not. Let's make it a crime for women to not report they were raped. I mean... reporting rape is "common sense" right? Reporting it can lead to capture of the rapist?
Let's punish women that are raped for failure to do so.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

That's quite a stretch for a hypothetical. I know farmers. Texas ones that I'm related to. They have guns. They lock them up.They don't causally leave them lying around the farm like lawn ornaments.

OK, that is ONE example. When a law is create it needs to take into consideration the population as a whole. Millions of gun owners are responsible and have no need or legal requirement to lock up their weapons.
That being said... Am I that crazy to assume that safes can be broken in to?

Originally Posted by joeski3d

how so?

Shall not be infringed.

Originally Posted by 217Bimmer

1) they should be required to be locked and secured
That makes them completely useless
2) if they are stolen, you should be required to report them so within a reasonable amount of time
How much time? What if I don't notice in time? I'm a criminal? What if I'm in the Bahamas for 5 weeks on vacation and not home? Criminal?
3) the penalties for people even possessing guns illegally should be much stricter. 10 years no questions asked if you possess an illegal gun whether you use it or not
Agreed (but we need to better define what makes a person prohibited)
4) are you upset about having to register your car? is that an infringement?
Car ownership is not a right

Originally Posted by joeski3d

I'm sure your worst case scenario may pop up from time to time if all legal gun acquisitions were registered. Our legal system is flawed. But registering all gun sales would certainly put a dent in guns finding their way to the streets illegally. And one can only surmise that fewer illegal guns would result in fewer homicides.

"my" worst case scenario? Read a history book

Registering guns has and will never make any positive impact in crime reduction. It will do nothing to guns "getting on the street" as ridiculous as that term is. Again.... there is no such thing as an illegal gun. It does not exist.

Originally Posted by 217Bimmer

if your gun is stolen, you have failed as a responsible gun owner. it is your absolute duty as a responsible gun owner to report a gun as stolen.

disagree. Again, punishing the victim.

Originally Posted by JonJon

"my" worst case scenario? Read a history book

Registering guns has and will never make any positive impact in crime reduction. It will do nothing to guns "getting on the street" as ridiculous as that term is.

Nobody said anything about crime reduction. I was talking solely about gun related homicide.

Originally Posted by JonJon

Again.... there is no such thing as an illegal gun. It does not exist.

You're dismissing a legitimate and documented problem because of your issue regarding semantics. That's all that is.

Originally Posted by JonJon

disagree. Again, punishing the victim.

Are you feeling punished for registering your car? If so, does that stop you from owning one? No... of course not. This too is a shallow counter argument.

Originally Posted by JonJon

NO. Is it responsible to do so? Maybe
There are cases where I might not want to report it. What if someone stole my gun (or anything else) and told me he knows where I live, where my kids go to school and what my 5 year looks like. If I report it stolen, he'll kill her.
I absolutely wouldn't report it.

Most cases you'd want to report it, but other you might not. Let's make it a crime for women to not report they were raped. I mean... reporting rape is "common sense" right? Reporting it can lead to capture of the rapist?
Let's punish women that are raped for failure to do so.

That is quite a scenario you developed. It is hard to argue against the imagination of the mind. Also, I am not sure how you can relate rape and gun theft together.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

Nobody said anything about crime reduction. I was talking solely about gun related homicide.

Homicide is not a crime? Interesting. Maybe that's why it's so high in NJ


You're dismissing a legitimate and documented problem because of your issue regarding semantics. That's all that is.

Facts are not semantics. If you would like to discuss a topic, let's be factual.
"Legitimate and documented problem"
Please cite your evidence on the above

......

Originally Posted by badfast

That is quite a scenario you developed. It is hard to argue against the imagination of the mind. Also, I am not sure how you can relate rape and gun theft together.

Either way... someone is getting fvcked

Originally Posted by JonJon

......

Now you're being a hyper semantics a-hole. Of course homicide is a crime. But that's not the only crime. Give it a rest. You're bordering on an off topic rant.

Originally Posted by JonJon

"Legitimate and documented problem"
Please cite your evidence on the above

It seems being factual with you is pointless but I'll give it a go because I have some time to kill. Pun totally intended.

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-law-stat...-and-research/

http://www.nij.gov/nij/topics/crime/...ce/aquired.htm

http://www.tracetheguns.org/#

And damn you for making your reply all my quote... made me do extra work to reply to you.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

Now you're being a hyper semantics a-hole. Of course homicide is a crime. But that's not the only crime. Give it a rest. You're bordering on an off topic rant.

Semantics? You are talking about crime reduction yet want to exclude killing?
I'm lost

Originally Posted by joeski3d

And damn you for making your reply all my quote... made me do extra work to reply to you.

Originally Posted by joeski3d

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-law-stat...-and-research/

http://www.nij.gov/nij/topics/crime/...ce/aquired.htm

http://www.tracetheguns.org/#

Those sites are a joke