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Old 01-18-2013, 11:37 AM   #1
glhx
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CEL light on....SAP bad and other engine performance problems

I received an item that allows me to use the torque pro app today.

vacuum 24 according to torque pro
engine rpm 700
engine rpm in drive 640 rpm
coolant temp was 84C
throttle showed at 10
o2 sensor data bouncing between .1and .7 volts will post pictures between the bank 1 and 2
they do look different. bank 1 is more up and down and bank two is more smooth.
post cat o2 runs live at .45 straight across

obd rediness....evap is unready
SAP system unready (because its not even on the car right now) The electric motor melted.

o2, catalyst, o2 heater.....show ready

I used PA soft to get bmw specific codes because the CEL was on
The first time was
P0491 = Secondary Air Injection System Insufficient Flow (Bank 1)
P0492 = Secondary Air Injection System Insufficient Flow (Bank 2)

I cleared it and a day later i got
E4/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 2, deviation too great, deviation rich
E3/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 1, deviation too great, deviation rich

I know the SAP is not working and that the pump is bad.

Could this be why my car is running so rich? Average gas mileage is decreasing and is now down to 15mpg on the obc

Last edited by glhx; 01-18-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:53 PM   #2
enzo_the_baker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhx View Post
I know the SAP is not working and that the pump is bad.

Could this be why my car is running so rich? Average gas mileage is decreasing and is now down to 15mpg on the obc
The SAP would not affect fuel economy, since it only operates for the first couple of minutes after a cold start. Look elsewhere-- maybe the MAF is mis-measuring the intake air and throwing too much fuel into the cylinders?
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:31 PM   #3
glhx
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My SAP may have been bad for a long time and I not know it because i dont know what its supposed to sound like. I know ive never heard any distinct noises from that area while under the hood ever.

The SAP sends fresh air to warm up the cats....also sends fresh air to help burn the rich fuel when cold starting. This is where i could think they are related.

Did running rich for a long period of time on cold starts carbon foul the o2 sensor.....which is past its replacement date anyway. only speculating here.

my thoughts on this are that one or both of my precat o2 sensors are bad and went bad over time due to lack of SAP and wear and tear.

i would like a diagram or picture of which connectors go to all 4 o2 sensors just to make sure they are in the right spots. i believe they are but i want to be sure. Who knows who worked on this thing before i owned it. Whoever it was neglected it and ive had to sort all kinds of stuff out.

It could be the MAF....i found an app to measure MAF in g/sec. havent done this yet.

Last edited by glhx; 01-18-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:47 PM   #4
jdstrickland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhx View Post
I received an item that allows me to use the torque pro app today.

vacuum 24 according to torque pro
engine rpm 700
engine rpm in drive 640 rpm
coolant temp was 84C
throttle showed at 10
o2 sensor data bouncing between .1and .7 volts will post pictures between the bank 1 and 2
they do look different. bank 1 is more up and down and bank two is more smooth.
post cat o2 runs live at .45 straight across

obd rediness....evap is unready
SAP system unready (because its not even on the car right now) The electric motor melted.

o2, catalyst, o2 heater.....show ready

I used PA soft to get bmw specific codes because the CEL was on
The first time was
P0491 = Secondary Air Injection System Insufficient Flow (Bank 1)
P0492 = Secondary Air Injection System Insufficient Flow (Bank 2)

I cleared it and a day later i got
E4/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 2, deviation too great, deviation rich
E3/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 1, deviation too great, deviation rich

I know the SAP is not working and that the pump is bad.

Could this be why my car is running so rich? Average gas mileage is decreasing and is now down to 15mpg on the obc
<;quote>
I cleared it and a day later i got
E4/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 2, deviation too great, deviation rich
E3/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 1, deviation too great, deviation rich

<;/quote>


<;HINT>
Sensors

<;/HINT>

Last edited by jdstrickland; 01-18-2013 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhx View Post
My SAP may have been bad for a long time and I not know it because i dont know what its supposed to sound like. I know ive never heard any distinct noises from that area while under the hood ever.

The SAP sends fresh air to warm up the cats....also sends fresh air to help burn the rich fuel when cold starting. This is where i could think they are related.

Did running rich for a long period of time on cold starts carbon foul the o2 sensor.....which is past its replacement date anyway. only speculating here.

my thoughts on this are that one or both of my precat o2 sensors are bad and went bad over time due to lack of SAP and wear and tear.

It could be the MAF....i found an app to measure MAF in g/sec. havent done this yet.
The SAP _only_ provides fresh air to help the CAT work efficiently while it is still cold. There is no other purpose for the SAP.

The CAT uses a chemical process and heat to help clean the exhaust and reduce emissions. The CAT does not work well while it is cold, but it works better if cold AND there is fresh air available as a substitute. Once the CAT warms up, the fresh air is not needed, until the CAT warms up the fresh air helps the CAT do what it is supposed to do.

The SAP has no bearing on your mileage. None. Not any. Not ever.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:01 PM   #6
enzo_the_baker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhx View Post
My SAP may have been bad for a long time and I not know it because i dont know what its supposed to sound like. I know ive never heard any distinct noises from that area while under the hood ever.

The SAP sends fresh air to warm up the cats....also sends fresh air to help burn the rich fuel when cold starting. This is where i could think they are related.

Did running rich for a long period of time on cold starts carbon foul the o2 sensor.....which is past its replacement date anyway. only speculating here.

my thoughts on this are that one or both of my precat o2 sensors are bad and went bad over time due to lack of SAP and wear and tear.

It could be the MAF....i found an app to measure MAF in g/sec. havent done this yet.
The SAP doesn't "warm up" the cats (can't warm something with cold fresh air), it just pumps additional air into the exhaust to help burn off uncombusted fuel until the cats get hot enough to do so on their own. I suppose it's possible that you have a bad O2 sensor, but for both to come up with faults at the same time makes me suspect that it's something else upstream that's causing both sensors to throw fuel mixture codes.

Also, if your SAP had not been working it should have lit up the SES light.
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Last edited by enzo_the_baker; 01-18-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:07 PM   #7
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Careful before you get ahead of yourself on these issues.

Once you get tools in your hands that can read codes and data, you have to stop and think EVERYTHING through!

SAP actually is there to both warm Catalytic converters quickly but also to help warm O2 sensor and to allow sensor to toggle to full Lean before going into closed loop, which actually takes less time than you may think with SAP and heated O2 sensors.

Here is a BIG suggestion. Do not worry about fuel economy yet. Let this work its way out while you sort all your other problems.

Also sort your problems 1 at a time. This will allow you to check off things each step of the way.

Not sure your mileage or history on the car. The biggest things that impact mileage are: Pre-cat O2 sensors, spark plugs and secondary ignition MAF, thermostat, DISA, VANOS. VANOS is more than the VANOS seals, this could be Camshaft position sensors, VANOS solenoids and other items.

Here are some suggestions.

1. See the 3rd link in my signature, run a cluster test for your dash and make sure your CEL and other indicators are working. Many times when people cannot get the CEL out, the put take over the CEL behind the cluster face or worse, they get out the wirecutters or epoxy!!

2. Using the 3rd link in my signature and/or some of your software tools verify your engine cooling temp. Your engine should get up to 90-95C in under 10 minutes even in cold temps. The engine should stay at or above about 90C unless you are running the engine over 3k RPM when the electrical heating element starts to reduce the engine temp. See this link - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

3. Try to get your SAP sorted, used pump would be what I would suggest of now.

4. If you Pre-cat O2 sensors are OLD, suggest replacing them new Bosch units. Replace them in pairs, I get mine on Amazon for about $50 each. These are consumable and do not last for ever. The worse the engine runs, the shorter time they last.

5. Make sure someone has not swapped the O2 sensor wiring wither up top or down below. This is pretty easy to do. The simple way to figure this out is disconnect any 1 O2 sensor wire and see what code is triggered and what bank the code is for. This way you can verify the proper O2 sensor is connected. Once you know the O2 sensors are for the correct bank, suggest you label them to help with future maintenance and troubleshooting.

6. If you have not checked your intake air path, intake boots, DISA and CCV, suggest you do this and also read the first link below in my signature.

7. BE CAREFUL about nomenclature on some of the tools. I believe the PA Soft deviation Rich actually means the engine is running lean and has deviated to enrich the mixture the maximum it can and has hit a wall on the adjustment. Suggest you use your Torque Pro App and compare readings and see what Torque Pro is finding.

8. Try to use Torque Pro to graph your O2 sensor performance on cold start once you have the SAP operational. This is kind of important as you can compare your car to some baseline good cars. O2 sensors should read about 0.45 Volts when cold and inactive and should then toggle between 0.1-0.9 Volts pretty rapidly. See this post here - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=954362

9. Note there are some cheap/counterfeit MAF's on the market that use thermistors rather than hot film sensor and they usually under report the airflow even at idle an cause lean problems.

10. If you are getting freeze frame codes, please capture the info and post it as well.

Try to provide updates with what you have found correct and/or repaired and advise what is still outstanding.

Also try to list at some point what new parts have been installed on the car so we can all figure out what parts have been updated. Also please note that not all new parts work correctly, so hold on to the originals until you have your problems fully solved.

Good luck and keep at it, you will get the issues resolved.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:18 PM   #8
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You're getting my vote next year, jfoj! Just saying!

OP, I scanned jfoj's post...on the SAP pump...you sure it's not working? Once it's come on first thing in the morning, it typically won't come on again unless the car has sat a long time.

Check the hose from sap to valve...bet yours is corroded...and check vac line heading underneath the O2 wires...the middle part of that line is hard plastic and often cracks...guys replace with continuous rubber line since that plastic line is stupid expensive (for what it is). Anyway, a crack in that line would, when starting the car, show up as rich, I think, because it's adding lots of fuel for a cold start, but isn't getting the air pressure it needs from sap to get the mixture right.

Sort of a theory, but I have to say I like it!

GL!
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:26 PM   #9
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glxh,

Also forgot to mention you need to provide both idle and cruising Fuel Trims at some point.

If your car is running rich, the fuel trims will be negative or proceeded with a - sign, they will be displayed like -2.3%.

If your car it running lean, which happens most often your fuel trims will be usually not be proceeded with a value or + sign, they will be displayed like 3.4%.

In my world I try to keep my fuel trims under 3%, prefer under 2% but sometimes this is not very feasible.

Forget about anyone that tells you that fuel trims just below 6% are fine, they may not trigger a CEL but they are NOT fine. This is too close to the threshold for triggering the CEL.
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Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

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Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

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Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:45 PM   #10
jfoj
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Just wanted to add since I was typing and had to address some management issues with the kids, I noticed other commented on the SAP purpose and function.

The SAP or air pump system purpose it to add extra air (that includes oxygen) into the cylinder head exhaust ports to add additional oxygen into the exhaust stream to allow the richer cold start fuel mixture to continue burning in the exhaust stream, kind of like an afterburner in a way, but not using fuel, just supplying additional oxygen to allow secondary combustion of any unburnt fuel in the exhaust as it exists the cylinders.

This extra air introduced in the exhaust stream will reduce the initial hydrocarbon emissions on cold start as well as rapidly increase the exhaust temperature to allow both the O2 sensors and catalytic converters to warm up faster and attempt to bring the engine into closed loop operation in typically under 2 minutes.

Another little known fact is stainless steel either reacts and/or heats up faster to allow more efficient hydrocarbon burning to again reduce both cold start and normal hydrocarbon emissions. This is another reason there has been a large amount of stainless steel exhaust components used over the last 10+ years on most cars.
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Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

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Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:57 PM   #11
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on a retest.....i am getting

readiness for obd
catalyst
secondary air
o2 sensor
evap ......all incomplete

o2 sensor heater was incomplete.....when i turned off the car and turned it back on it showed complete.

the bmw scanner 1.4,0 showed everything to be in the green.

temperature at idle after ten minutes was 96C
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Last edited by glhx; 01-18-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:54 PM   #12
glhx
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what ive replaced.....1 year ago or 15k

car has 130,000 on it

ccv
Correct Disa O-ring. its in there snug
lower intake boot
throttle body gasket
spark plugs
water pump
thermostat....3 days ago
upper intake boot well checked for cracks
intake vacuum caps
sap vacuum lines
fuel filter and vac lines
cleaned ICV....didnt really need it
cleaned every connection point for sensors with contact cleaner

SAP was checked.....vacuum to check valve was 18
check valve open and i can blow into it....closes and i cant
SAP not getting power from relay
SAP hot wired directly....not pumping air....disassembled and found to be overheated and burned up base where the brushes go......RELAY BAD, SAP BAD.....relay probably caused SAP to go
bad. with a better relay that would take more amps it would not have burned up. with regular maintenance of the check valve every 100,000 miles with a seafoam cleaning....hose replaced and carbon cleaned i dont think it would ever fail. the most complex part is the electric motor and the top bearing...the bottom bearing is just a bushing. Thats why im going to get one used. I might get a new check valve for it.

car ran 25mpg average.....last month went to 19mpg average. Whatever failed...just failed recently. and your right.....both 02 sensors probably didnt go bad at the same time but could have.

will check connections to make sure they are right at the o2 sensors.

pa soft cluster test shows everything good. cel works fine

cannot find fuel trims in the torque pro app. I would like to thank all of you for help with this. This car is challenging and bring me to a level of understanding i didnt have before.

Last edited by glhx; 01-18-2013 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:30 PM   #13
glhx
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found fuel trims in torque pro...had to download a plugin. will check them
at idle cold, warm and cruising.

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Old 01-18-2013, 07:37 PM   #14
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Thanks for the info.

Engine cooling temp is good now, we can check this off as correct and move on to other items.

CCV should be able to be cleared as it was replaced and we can assume in good shape.

Most of the gotchas look like they have been sorted, vacuum lines, lower intake boot, spark plugs, fuel filter and fuel filter vacuum hoses.

As for Emission Readiness Codes not set we need to get the SAP sorted, hopefully you can pick up a used pump and check to see if the relay/fuse is good. The SAP should only run for up to 90 seconds on cold start.

I would try not to clear codes for now to see what, if any Emission Readiness Monitors clear. Likely Catalyst may not set? unit SAP is sorted, but not exactly sure what the DME expects to test.

Evap is almost always the last and toughest to set at times.

We will check out your fuel trims, it will be interesting to see if they are off at both idle and cruise?

You may have a questionable MAF that was replaced before you purchased the car?? When you purchased the car did you have an CEL, misfires or cold start issues? Usually most novices replace the MAF for all the wrong reasons and maybe you have one of the "BAD" MAF's running around out there?

Once you get your fuel trims figured out and documented, disconnect the MAF (will trigger trouble codes) but see what happens to the fuel trims with the MAF disconnected.

Also get your Gram/Sec MAF reading at idle and a 30-40 MPH flat cruise.

I also assume you have no misfire or cold start issues at the moment?

Keep the data coming, we will see where this leads, hopefully we can get you sorted soon.
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Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

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Old 01-22-2013, 06:51 PM   #15
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this is what i have without the SAP installed

...........Idle COLD 40 degrees.........
Bank #1
Long term fuel trim +11.72
short term fuel trim .78 to +3.91

Bank #2
Long term fuel trim +11.72
short term fuel trim +1.56 to +4.69


.......IDLE WARM........93 Degrees
Long term fuel trim +11.72
short term fuel trim -3.12 to 0

Bank #2
Long term fuel trim +11.72
short term fuel trim -2.34 to 0


.......IDLE WARM........96 Degrees
Long term fuel trim +11.72
short term fuel trim -3 to -5

Bank #2
Long term fuel trim +11.72
short term fuel trim -3 to -5
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:58 PM   #16
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MAF reading

30 to 40MPH flat run was 13
80 MPH was 18

Idle at 96 degrees MAF was 3.64


IDLE AIR TEMP
93 degrees at idle...the IAT was 28C
96 degrees at idle .....the IAT was 48C


Volumetric efficiency at idle was 19%

timing was -2.5 to 3
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:06 PM   #17
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Have not compared my 330, but the flat out 30-40 MPH run at 13 Grams/Sec sounds low??

I am thinking you may have one of the crappy imitation MAF's that use thermistors???? These crappy MAF's under report airflow, usually at idle they are close, but cruising they read too low and and will cause the fuel trims to always be high.

Long term fuel trims are too high, they should be less than 3%.

Get your O2 sensors logged from cold start for the first 3-4 minutes until the engine goes into closed loop. This will allow us to see if the O2 sensors look good.
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Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

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Old 01-22-2013, 07:52 PM   #18
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If your tool is actually reading your MAF in Grams/Sec, then I believe your MAF is a cheap imitation? I do not think it is just bad, the values are off too far even for a bad MAF?

I just took my 330 out and at idle my reading is about 7 Grams/Sec
At 3k RPM no load free rev my reading is about 14 Gram/Sec
I jumped on the throttle not too hard coming off a stop and I do not think the engine ever went over 3k RPM and I was pulling up to 60 Grams/Sec before getting out of 2nd gear.

Note my current outside temp is 18F so I would assume I have a bit more density in the air than warmer air, but I would not expect these valves to be off significantly.
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Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

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Old 01-22-2013, 08:42 PM   #19
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Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,370
My Ride: 2002 BMW 330ci
im going to run all these tests again just to be sure. I do not know how to log 02 with this app yet so if you have any ideas let me know. I do know the o2 patterns look different. the bank1 is up and down.....the bank 2 is more smooth lines and taking longer to get in between the ranges of .1 and .7


What i can do is check for a bmw part number on the MAF

I can confirm the bad mileage. I am getting 19mpg average with mostly highway driving. I manually calculated this. 312 miles driven using 15.8 gallons of gas. My obc is almost dead on.

It could be lean problem and running rich because of that ....or just running rich. maybe my cold thermostat and lack of SAP fouled the o2 sensors. I know the oil is getting black which indicates fuel wash down. not bad yet but i know what that leads to.

Ill run at idle at 96c......what are the ranges for these i want to see
MAF
LTFT
STFT
O2 data
VE
and IAT

do we need all of these or just some of them

and MAF 30-40mph

the 11.72% LTFT was consistent over several days.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:35 PM   #20
jfoj
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fairfax, VA USA
Posts: 11,624
My Ride: '06 330CiC, '03 M5
The issue is if the MAF is under reporting the airflow, then the the fuel injector timing is low, which then causes the O2 sensors to read constantly lean, then the DME is constantly trying to enrich the mixture to counter the O2 sensor readings.

The problem is the DME can only enrich the mixture by X amount, there are hard limits and this is why you are getting the current codes. The DME cannot bring the fuel mixture into a proper balance within the limits of the DME.

Long term fuel trims really need to be under 3%, anything 2% an lower, I generally take no action.

Short term fuel trims may be a bit higher, but I generally do not pay much attention to short term trims except at idle as they can dance around quite a bit.

Just make sure the MAF readings are in Grams per Second. If they are really at the numbers you have indicated, you have issues. Let me know what the ambient temps were when you captured the data.

If you suspect anything strange with the O2 sensors, suggest you replace the pre Cats with Bosch and replace both at the same time. Unless they are wideband O2 sensors, you should be able to get them for about $50 each on Amazon.

I will try to recheck my 330 tomorrow with Torque Pro as well, I used my Launch CReader VI tonight as it is far simpler to use than Torque, or at least it is plug and play, I can graph on the tool and the back light does not time out! At 18F outside, I did not want to play around too much!

I would bet your MAF was some Chinese knock off from Ebay?? It could be a really bad OE MAF? Suggest you check for part numbers, vendor name and logos.

I have seen some similar issues that you are running into now with import/counterfeit MAF's. I have no idea where they are coming from, what they look like or how many are out there. Hold onto what you pull off and I may want to get my hands on it to look it over closely.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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