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Old 01-20-2013, 08:44 PM   #21
wildirish317
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Thanks! I don't have a Droid, so I'll try the Elmscan to see what's going on. Although it's annoying, I can always "drive around" it by keeping a light foot if I'm not in a hurry, or mashing the pedal if I am. I do, however, spend a lot of time in this rpm band driving around town.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:00 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Thanks for the clarification of the data.

Timing changes are negligible, possibly knock sensor(s) triggering slight retard on timing?

Fuel trims are a bit wacky. Would like to see what the pre Cat O2 sensors are doing.

O2 baseline Voltage is 0.45 Volts when cold/inactive, this is as expected.

Not sure why you are not picking up pre Cat O2 sensors? Do you have another car you can try ELM327/Torque Pro on? Assume you also have the Torque Pro add-ons as well?

If your pre-cat O2 are original, suggest replacing just because, as they are considered consumable anyway. Usual replacement mileage is suggested at 100k, but I replace at 75k as most drivers in urban areas have engine idling for long periods in traffic. Bosch are usually about $50 on Amazon, I have good luck with all the Bosch I have purchased from Amazon.

Sorry if my English is questionable, it is my native tongue. Maybe it is Virginia coming through?

I just multitask quite a bit as I do a lot of network and remote support and I have a lot of distractions with kids and other things, so many times I am in and out both physically and mentally!

I try to contribute where I can.
I imagine it's not picking up the pre-cats because they're wideband sensors on the MS45.1 cars. So they report actual AFR rather than lamda afaik -- he'd have to use a different PID to access those readings

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Old 01-20-2013, 11:18 PM   #23
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I imagine it's not picking up the pre-cats because they're wideband sensors on the MS45.1 cars. So they report actual AFR rather than lamda afaik -- he'd have to use a different PID to access those readings
I do have live AFR readings. I guess I assumed it was some sort of bullshit calculation that Torque was doing, based on the fuel trim, the throttle position, and the placement of Venus in the 12 houses of the natal birth chart. Are you saying, since they're wideband sensors, that might be where the AFR's coming from?
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:19 PM   #24
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...does this also apply to 1500-3000 rpm shudders? I might DIY an EU2 tune to update. This would be an alright flash, correct?

Thanks for the thread.

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Old 01-22-2013, 06:23 PM   #25
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PainBreak,

A few questions that may be relevant?

What transmission do you and all the other owners have, I assume this problem only manifests itself with manual transmission cars?

Also explain what gear you are typically in and what speed the car is typically traveling?

I will relate a situation that I fought with on a very different BMW without a DISA for some time. I spent an awful lot of money and time on the issue to find out there was a big problem with the timing maps for the car. I believe these may have been tweaked timing maps, but not 100% sure if they were bone stock. Note my car has a 6 speed manual transmission.

What I found was between 1500-3000 RPM there was a chuggle, misfire to stutter as you mention. There were NEVER any misfire codes and as soon as the engine spun past 3k RPM problem was GONE.

So if you were driving spirited where you spun the motor up in 1st gear and kept on getting into it, the engine was ALWAYS above 3k RPM and you would never experience the problem.

But it you were tooling around town and eased into the throttle and maybe had a light incline you would experience this chuggle. Down shift 1 gear, engine is above 3k RPM, problem gone, however, if you continued to lay into the throttle the chuggle/bucking would get worse as you approached 2800-3000 RPM. Car would actually loose power.

I was able to find a specific road with a minor incline where I could literally force the problem to occur and occur bad if I was lugging the engine a bit in say 5-6th gear around 2200 RPM.

I finally figured out the issue using a cheap, generic $30 OBD program and I was able to record the ignition timing. The ignition timing was retarding to as low a -5 degrees Before Top Dead Center. This is actually about as low as the timing would go and is really a fail safe value that was used.

The chuggle/misfiring/shuddering I was feeling was not a misfire at all, it was the DME jumping between timing maps reducing power and then when the timing jumps at times as much as 20+ degrees, these were actually power pulses I was feeling when the timing is advancing back from a heavily retarded state.

It was not the DME registering knock sensors and retarding the timing as the knock sensors will only take about 5-6 degrees of timing away, not as I was seeing at times as much as 25-30 degrees of ignition timing being removed. If you take 25-30 degrees of timing advance away in a single instance, you will the engines ability to produce power and it is VERY noticeable.

Very long story short, my issue was resolved with a different DME tune, but it was not a BMW DME tune as I cannot run a stock BMW tune in the car I had issues with.

I speculate to some extent that what I was suffering from was a bad BMW timing map that may have been slightly altered by a tuner at one point that made the issue much worse and more noticeable??

My current tune also cleaned up a lot of other issue like coast down fuel cut off and 2nd gear throttle sensitivity.

My suggestion is to map out your engine RPM, Throttle Position, Ignition Timing and Coolant temp, go for a drive and see if you can catch your problem with the software. If your ignition timing is jumping around a lot, you then need to figure out if you have a bad timing map or a leaning problem causing the knock sensors to retard the timing. But timing retarding should not be really noticeable under most circumstances.

This may not be your issue, but is an easy issue to check and rule either in or out as a culprit.
I should read before I post. This makes me think reflash. Hopefully. I'll come back with an answer soon!

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Old 01-23-2013, 09:31 AM   #26
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I'm not ready to draw any solid conclusions as of yet. I'm positive my car has an unmetered leak somewhere, else the fuel trims wouldn't be pegging out during idle. I just want to make sure we have as much documentation on common issues as possible, as these cars are aging, and more and more people will be experiencing the same issues.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:04 AM   #27
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Here is the problem shown on the dyno.

Mine is the Mustang load dyno, the other doesn't have the problem and is smooth.

On my car, with the data logger I can see the timing change when this event occurs. Air fuel changes also. I can smooth it out with Unichip but it is just a band aid for the OEM software.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:03 PM   #28
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So this gets a bit interesting on how to figure out for sure what is going on.

Is the timing dropping back due to being triggered by the knock sensors or is there a problem with the engine timing map(s)?

A few options would be the following:

1. Disconnect the knock sensors and see what happens, this may be counter productive as the DME may drop back to a safety ignition mode?
2. Try just for kicks to unplug the DISA and see what if anything happens. THis is easy as everyone that has an issue can take 5 minutes and try this. Either there will be no change or there will be an improvement. Either answer is fine.
3. A bit more difficult to do, if unplugging the knock sensors puts the engine into a safe timing map, you can remove the knock sensors from the engine wrap them in a towel, bubble wrap or something to isolate the knock sensors. This will allow anyone to confirm if the knock sensors are actually getting triggered for some reason.
4. For those without Dyno access an option may be able to graph RPM and Timing. Watch the RPM closely and see if it dips down.

If it is determined that the knock sensors are picking up some form of acoustical noise then this is where the problem starts. Any mechanical slop can trigger knock sensors, it could be something like a dual mass flywheel, a belt tensioner of maybe even the VANOS rattling at some resonance frequency??

I have even seen fan belts vibrating causing knock sensors to be triggered, non BMW!

So time to gather more data and experiment a bit.

One question that comes to mind was this problem with these cars since new, has something worn and is this issue only showing up in higher mileage cars. What is common on these car, transmission type, exhaust mods and so forth??

Just some things for everyone to think about.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:04 PM   #29
TerraPhantm
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I do have live AFR readings. I guess I assumed it was some sort of bullshit calculation that Torque was doing, based on the fuel trim, the throttle position, and the placement of Venus in the 12 houses of the natal birth chart. Are you saying, since they're wideband sensors, that might be where the AFR's coming from?
almost definitely

Quote:
Originally Posted by PainBreak View Post
I'm not ready to draw any solid conclusions as of yet. I'm positive my car has an unmetered leak somewhere, else the fuel trims wouldn't be pegging out during idle. I just want to make sure we have as much documentation on common issues as possible, as these cars are aging, and more and more people will be experiencing the same issues.
any particular you don't want to / can't update your software?

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Old 01-23-2013, 08:15 PM   #30
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After much delay from BMW they eventually reprogrammed the software and the error was fixed. This took multiple trips to the dealership and eventually was fixed, not sure of the details of the reprogramming though.

It was done at Ralley BMW in NY.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:18 PM   #31
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jfoj, I think you are on the right track, and in line with OP post #1. Has anyone had this issue with an E46 when it was new? If not, what is changing over time to cause this? I can rule out the DISA on mine. I drove 400+ miles with the DISA unplugged with no change.

Has anyone replaced the knock sensors in response to this? I'm not sure how the computer reacts to "unplugged" knock sensors, but replacing them may be a telling trial.

If it didn't happen "out of the box", I can't see where this is a software issue.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:31 PM   #32
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The way I understand it is that the 2800-3000 rpm miss is related to the O2 sensor programming......the original software has the parameters for the O2 sensors set in too narrow of a band and as things wear, carbon buildup, whatever the cause, the range for the O2s needs to be opened up to eliminate the issue. The latest software from BMW takes care of this. This is different from the DISA/knock sensor problem that causes the dip at 4000 rpm.

This post explains things pretty well......

Quote:
Originally Posted by silvergrau View Post
I wanted to follow up on the Vanos install with more information. My initial impression of it being fixed after my phase 2 (see previous post on this thread) which included a Vanos rebuild from DrVanos was that the car had lost its jerkiness in the 2500-3000 RPM range under moderate acceleration...but then it returned and the P2240 - O2 Bank2 Sensor fault returned (FC 2974 for the peake tool).

I came to the conclusion that it was most likely a SW issue. Thanks to TerraPhantm, among others, that had posted on a thread with many clues echoing my symptoms.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=120971&page=3


I bit the bullet and took it to the dealership (KY in hand) knowing that I was gonna get reamed for 2hours of labor. I presented the case and history very clearly to the good Service Rep and I left with a loaner...not a new BMW

The dealer then notified me that my diagnosis was correct.

The applicable ECU update was for the following service bulletin:

SI B 12 40 06 Engine Electrical Systems

Subject: MS45.I - Various O2 Sensor Faults Stored in DME

This Service Information bulletin supersedes S.M. B12 208 04 Dated October 2004.

Model: E46 3 Series (all models except 325xi and 330xi), E60 5 Series (525i, 530i), E83 X3 (all models) with M54 engine up to 09/04.

Fault Codes: 2960, 2961, 2973, and 2974

Cause: The DME Oxygen Sensor internal adaptation is incorrect.

Procedure: On a customer complaint ONLY, reprogram the DME , using the current Program version. The improved DME software was introduced since DIS CD V39.1 and Program V13.2.

This has fixed the jerkiness for me. I tested the crap out of my car and transitioned through the rpm range in all gears many times. It is as smooth as could be.

Thanks to everybody that helped. I don't know if I would use DrVanos again, though when you add up what is needed for a rebuild from Beisan systems, you wind up spending $120 vs. $250, and DrVanos does clean, rebuild (not a big deal), and test the solenoids so I don't regret the DrVanos extravagance, but I do see Smolck's point of view regarding his opinion on the matter.

So, my rattle is fixed with the rebuilt Vanos, and I have the power and smoothness back. I hope it lasts.
I will add to this thread, adding info about stuff I learned, that either wasn't in the DIYs I used, or I had missed.

Time to wind it up on some twisties...:bigpimp:
I had this miss along with an occasional 2974 Peake code (no CEL though) and had my DME updated about 3 years ago by JBEurotech in Minneapolis and it completely cured the miss and seemed to make it run better overall. Before having the software update I tried the Beisan seals, plugs and fuel filter without any change. Also the dealer installed a new DISA on the day I bought my car. I've seen posts from others who have installed new O2s and still had the miss.

I still have a very slight dip at 4000 rpm, more noticeable on hotter days. It seems like this 2800-3000 rpm miss is most common on 2004 ZHPs for some reason.

Barry
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:24 PM   #33
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^Thanks Barry. That would explain why it didn't happen to new cars. That would also explain why Mango has never experienced this; all his parts are new.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:10 AM   #34
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As for my DME flash, $$$$$ is what it took, it was not $125 at the dealer.
I just got a quote from my local dealer to perform the SI B 12 40 06 Engine Electrical Systems for $122.83 ($110.00 with the VIP discount). Although this is expensive, it's probably worth doing if it solves the problem.

Any thoughts on this?
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:23 PM   #35
repoman89
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Damn, just realized I'm part of this club today. Throttle probably 60-80% going uphill in third/fourth and the engine hesitates a bit right at 2800 RPM. I don't believe O2 sensors have been done - planned for this summer.

2003 330i Auto 110k (non-ZHP)

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Old 01-25-2013, 04:52 PM   #36
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As for my DME flash, $$$$$ is what it took, it was not $125 at the dealer.
No dealer should charge more than an hour labor for a DME flash. Even that is pretty high. My dealer charged $125 to update my old car. This was before I knew how to do the update myself. Now you can do it yourself with a $15 cable off amazon.

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Old 01-25-2013, 05:49 PM   #37
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No dealer should charge more than an hour labor for a DME flash. Even that is pretty high. My dealer charged $125 to update my old car. This was before I knew how to do the update myself. Now you can do it yourself with a $15 cable off amazon.
Please, do tell.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:03 PM   #38
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No dealer should charge more than an hour labor for a DME flash. Even that is pretty high. My dealer charged $125 to update my old car. This was before I knew how to do the update myself. Now you can do it yourself with a $15 cable off amazon.
Like I mentioned on my car, I cannot run an OEM tune. Almost all non OEM tunes are reworked OEM tunes, but if the tuner is not really good, you end with with a bigger mess on your hands.

Also the "well known" tuner was no real help as they claimed they never had a problem and basically claimed it was "always a problem with the car".

Well I called BS on this, walked away from said "well known" tuner and within a few minutes of connecting a cable to my car the problem was instantly resolved.

No more 25 degree drops in ignition timing.

If you look at the dyno graph posted earlier in this thread and see what 2-3 degrees of timing loss does to your engines ability to produce power, just think about loosing up to 25 degrees of timing and then putting most of it back in almost instantaneously. Talk about "STUDDER/CHUGGLE/insert description".

TerraPhantm is likely talking about flashing in a BMW Euro Tune with Wintfk??
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:37 PM   #39
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Doesn't have to be a euro tune. You can flash any stock BMW software via winkfp.

And BMW software (dealer and factory) writes over the whole DME (program and data) so having an aftermarket tune shouldn't be an issue. You would need to get retuned afterwards (though sounds like you weren't really a fan of your tuner anyway).
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:05 PM   #40
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Don't own my zhp any more but got a PM asking me to update here so I will.

Parts replaced:

vanos seals (beisan systems)
Disa valve
Oil separator and hoses
intake boot
spark plugs

didn't really do much.

Had the DME overnighted to BMW NA for the flash, that made things much better but I wouldn't say 100% cured.

I now own an N52 powered car without the DISA, and the acceleration feels much more linear, which I believe is in part due to the fact that there is no change going on in the intake during WOT acceleration.
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