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Old 01-31-2013, 01:33 PM   #81
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How is that treating them like second class human beings? They aren't United States citizens. They are intentionally and continually breaking the law. Why do you feel like you can be the arbitor of which laws we should enforce and which laws we should ignore?
No, they aren't United States citizens, but they are human beings which is why I argue they should, as such, be treated with due respect and dignity.

I'm not arguing for arbitrating which laws to enforce or break (note that I do call them illegal aliens, not that vacuous "undocumented" phrase which seems to imply simple clerical errors at the INS), but rather, to change to laws to better reflect today's realities.

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Why can't we treat them with the same respect and dignity their home country would treat us?
Rather, as America and Americans, ought we be setting the high standard under which any and all individuals are treated rather than resort to a lowest common denominator?

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Also, why import 11-20 million people that will likely be out of a job
Those 11-20 million people are already imported, unlikely to "self-deport" in any great number and those 11-20 million jobs they do are presumably important and thus won't simply disappear.
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Old 01-31-2013, 01:38 PM   #82
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No, they aren't United States citizens, but they are human beings which is why I argue they should, as such, be treated with due respect and dignity.

I'm not arguing for arbitrating which laws to enforce or break (note that I do call them illegal aliens, not that vacuous "undocumented" phrase which seems to imply simple clerical errors at the INS), but rather, to change to laws to better reflect today's realities.

Rather, as America and Americans, ought we be setting the high standard under which any and all individuals are treated rather than resort to a lowest common denominator?

Those 11-20 million people are already imported, unlikely to "self-deport" in any great number and those 11-20 million jobs they do are presumably important and thus won't simply disappear.
Im sorry, but the human being argument is weak. They get treated in our hospitals. They go to our schools. I don't see them shoved into camps or mistreated. I don't follow the "human being" argument, since it is a non-issue. Hell, they are treated more "human" here than they do back home.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:24 PM   #83
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"They want their people to come here and send money back. That's the plan."

Remittances account for 20 billion dollars in the Mexican economy. The county of Mexico has a vested interest in this continuing as it is the 10th largest contributor to their GDP

"They care about entitlements."

True, and not disparaging. If it were not true they would have supported the GOP politicians that supported Amnesty and "comprehensive immigration reform".

"The vote is going to those that stand for entitlements."

Again, no disparaging. Perhaps you need to go look up what disparaging means?

Perhaps the Latinos simply have misconstrued the caring and welcoming policies, rhetoric and tone of the GOP. Silly Latinos. Maybe when the conveniently self-deport they will come to their senses.
smh
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:26 PM   #84
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No, they aren't United States citizens, but they are human beings which is why I argue they should, as such, be treated with due respect and dignity.
They are better off being here as illegals, at least they have jobs. We are under no duty to accept each and every person that wants to be an American citizen. All immigrants have to pass a threshold of not being a burden on the State. We are not obliged to absorb every poor person in the world at the expense of people already here trying to make ends meet.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:38 PM   #85
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Perhaps the Latinos simply have misconstrued the caring and welcoming policies, rhetoric and tone of the GOP. Silly Latinos. Maybe when the conveniently self-deport they will come to their senses.
We can only hope.

Right, white guys?
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:54 PM   #86
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Do you think that since you were able to skirt the system you should be allowed to get citizenship over people living abroad that have to wait?
I didn't choose to come here, I was brought as a kid.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:58 PM   #87
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I can appreciate that, but my family came here legally, spent a FORTUNE on lawyers, waited in line, etc etc etc. You were a child, so you weren't at fault, but now that you are an adult, hoping to "cut the line" isn't going to get sympathy from people like me unfortunately. I do respect your work ethic, and don't think you are a leech (Americans do a fine job of leeching on their own) but as far as status goes, IMHO, get on line, and wait/pay like everyone else.
I'm not cutting in line I'm waiting like everyone else, I don't want any sympathy from no one.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:59 PM   #88
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Good for you! Good luck!
Thanks!
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:05 PM   #89
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Nice strawman you dolt. I'm not saying they don't want to work. I'm saying they wont be able to get jobs. There aren't enough jobs for Americans here now, the reason illegals get work is that since they aren't citizens you can pay them under the table. Once you put them on par with the rest of Americans they will face the same issues current Americans are facing in the job market. You will effectively erase their niche.

How's that unemployment rate going, by the way? How many people are out of the workforce now compared to 4 years ago?

Also, who's disparaging who? WTF are you talking about
Maybe because they do the jobs American citizens don't want to do example, picking crops under 100f+ weather, construction, cleaning after someone else. And we do this for under minimum wage to provide for our families.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:09 AM   #90
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Maybe because they do the jobs American citizens don't want to do example, picking crops under 100f+ weather, construction, cleaning after someone else. And we do this for under minimum wage to provide for our families.
Talking point regurgitation. Guess what, you won't be doing these jobs as citizens because they won't exist
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:13 AM   #91
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Maybe because they do the jobs American citizens don't want to do example, picking crops under 100f+ weather, construction, cleaning after someone else. And we do this for under minimum wage to provide for our families.
No offense, but someone did these jobs before illegal immigrants. There were always crops, restaurants, etc operating in the US. There are plenty of states where these jobs are done by Americans.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:16 AM   #92
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Wait until you're competing with everyone else for these jobs...be careful what you wish for
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:40 AM   #93
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Jesus christ. How long before you guys get it into your heads? There is no line. You either have an "in" via family, money, or talent or you don't get in. It's that simple. That's our current immigration system.

And to compare our government policy to Mexico's is absolutely retarded. We're better than Mexico, Russia, Poland, China. And all those other shitty countries whose citizens fled to come to the land of the free. We're better because we do things differently around here. And the greatest periods of American economic development happened when we had unrestricted immigration and low taxes and regulatory burdens.

Also, can you drop the foreign remittances issue? Dollars leaving the country doesn't matter in the long run because they have to come back in the form of foreign demand for American goods and services. And if they stay overseas all that does is make current dollar holders more valuable (through an economic process called seigniorage).
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:02 AM   #94
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Jesus christ. How long before you guys get it into your heads? There is no line. You either have an "in" via family, money, or talent or you don't get in. It's that simple. That's our current immigration system.

And to compare our government policy to Mexico's is absolutely retarded. We're better than Mexico, Russia, Poland, China. And all those other shitty countries whose citizens fled to come to the land of the free. We're better because we do things differently around here. And the greatest periods of American economic development happened when we had unrestricted immigration and low taxes and regulatory burdens.

Also, can you drop the foreign remittances issue? Dollars leaving the country doesn't matter in the long run because they have to come back in the form of foreign demand for American goods and services. And if they stay overseas all that does is make current dollar holders more valuable (through an economic process called seigniorage).
Excuse me? Lest we forget the biggest "in" of them all, asylum? How about marriage? Did you forget how many immigrants with families in the US there are? Hell, my mother alone has 23 immigration cases right now. No line? You must be kidding yourself.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:09 AM   #95
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Excuse me? Lest we forget the biggest "in" of them all, asylum? How about marriage? Did you forget how many immigrants with families in the US there are? Hell, my mother alone has 23 immigration cases right now. No line? You must be kidding yourself.


Do you know what an "immigration case" is? It's simply paperwork that needs to be processed in a correct manner to allow legal status. But you need to have the necessary qualifications in order to not have that paperwork rejected.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:19 AM   #96
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NFRs2000nyc is an immigrant. Surprised he doesn't know this stuff already.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:25 AM   #97
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Jesus christ. How long before you guys get it into your heads? There is no line. You either have an "in" via family, money, or talent or you don't get in. It's that simple. That's our current immigration system.

And to compare our government policy to Mexico's is absolutely retarded. We're better than Mexico, Russia, Poland, China. And all those other shitty countries whose citizens fled to come to the land of the free. We're better because we do things differently around here. And the greatest periods of American economic development happened when we had unrestricted immigration and low taxes and regulatory burdens.

Also, can you drop the foreign remittances issue? Dollars leaving the country doesn't matter in the long run because they have to come back in the form of foreign demand for American goods and services. And if they stay overseas all that does is make current dollar holders more valuable (through an economic process called seigniorage).
When we changed our immigration policy in 65 things got retarded. We certainly can bring up how things are done in Mexico because Mexico is sticking their nose in our business.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:24 AM   #98
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Do you know what an "immigration case" is? It's simply paperwork that needs to be processed in a correct manner to allow legal status. But you need to have the necessary qualifications in order to not have that paperwork rejected.
Which means hiring a lawyer, and WAITING FOR YOUR INTERVIEW OR PETITION TO BE APPROVED....WHICH CAUSES A LINE OR BACKLOG TO BE FORMED THAT CAN BE ALMOST A YEAR LONG. Tell me, you seem to be familiar with the immigration process, what is the current wait/petition processing time for an American citizen to bring their sibling over....during this time, the sibling is sitting in their home country waiting BTW, but ill just wait for you to google that one.

Are you reading what you are actually posting?
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:01 PM   #99
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An interesting case for immigration reform by David Brooks, the NYT's resident moderate Republican (probably protected under the Endangered Species Act). He makes what I would consider a compelling pragmatic argument in favor of reform.

The Easy Problem

Here are some highlights I clipped out and reformatted slightly:
Increased immigration would boost the U.S. economy.
  • Immigrants are 30 percent more likely to start new businesses than native-born Americans, according to a research summary by Michael Greenstone and Adam Looney of The Hamilton Project.
  • They are more likely to earn patents. A quarter of new high-tech companies with more than $1 million in sales were also founded by the foreign-born.
  • A study by Madeline Zavodny, an economics professor at Agnes Scott College, found that every additional 100 foreign-born workers in science and technology fields is associated with 262 additional jobs for U.S. natives.
  • Thanks to the labor of low-skill immigrants, the cost of food, homes and child care comes down, living standards rise and more women can afford to work outside the home.
The second clear finding is that many of the fears associated with immigration, including illegal immigration, are overblown.
  • Immigrants are doing a reasonable job of assimilating. Almost all of the children of immigrants from Africa and Asia speak English and more than 90 percent of the children of Latin-American immigrants do.
  • New immigrants may start out disproportionately in construction and food-service jobs, but, by second and third generation, their occupation profiles are little different from the native-born.
  • Immigrants, including illegal immigrants, are not socially disruptive. They are much less likely to wind up in prison or in mental hospitals than the native-born.
  • Immigrants, both legal and illegal, do not drain the federal budget. It's true that states and localities have to spend money to educate them when they are children, but, over the course of their lives, they pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits.
  • Furthermore, according to the Congressional Budget Office, giving the current illegals a path to citizenship would increase the taxes they pay by $48 billion and increase the cost of public services they use by $23 billion, thereby producing a surplus of $25 billion.
Itís also looking more likely that immigrants donít even lower the wages for vulnerable, low-skill Americans.
  • ...as Heidi Shierholz of the Economic Policy Institute explains, methodological advances suggest that the wages of most low-skill workers are probably not significantly affected. It turns out that immigrant workers are not always in direct competition with native-born workers, and, in some cases, they push the native-born upward into jobs that require more communication skills.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:24 PM   #100
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Our country's entitlement system is VASTLY different than it was in the 80's... and Reagan's law pushed for reform which included ENDING illegal immigration into this country. It hasn't worked and we CAN NOT give handouts to anyone who wants to walk across the fawking desert.
Yes it is. The states have more control and responsibility for welfare than the feds do now. There is more "work-fare" legislation now than in the 80's.

BTW, in case you forgot, Reagan was Gov of Cali. He knew that ending illegal immigration, especially from Mexico wasn't going to happen. It was an action, by the GOP, to try and grab a portion of the hispanic voting block in western swing states. And now the GOP (or at least some of its conservative followers) want to b!tch about the DNC doing the same damn thing they did. Comical.
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