NFA Talk

Originally Posted by 2000_328CI

What are some of the potential consequences? I was under the impression that I could :

- Preorder Engage lower and inform them I want to build it as an SBR
- Fill out my trust at guntrust.com
- Upon Engage delivering the lowers, I would fill out paperwork and provide information on my trust. It would, at that point, be engraved.

Thats right, you would have to find a class III FFL to ship the lower to of course.

They and the FFL will walk you through the process, its not as daunting as it seems. I'd avoid the trust but thats just me, the old school way is bullet proof as long as your leo will sign off. Trusts can and have been overturned years down the road because of wording.

My Gemtech Halo (which I have named Precious) came home with me last week. I was able to take it to an outdoor range for the first time on Saturday

Form 4 paperwork was sent out on the .22 suppressor on Tuesday. My FFL actually sent me a video of them opening it to show the "birthing" of my new suppressor (which has been named Princess). It was pretty cool. If they end up putting it on Youtube I'll post it.

Thinking about getting the ball rolling on an SBR.

Quick question to you all, why didn't you guys get a CLEO to sign off for your stamp instead of paying for a trust?

Originally Posted by M3_POWER

Thinking about getting the ball rolling on an SBR.

Quick question to you all, why didn't you guys get a CLEO to sign off for your stamp instead of paying for a trust?

Tailo will tell you that a Trust may get rejected down the line by the ATF. My opinion is that you use a qualified, well established lawyer and there will be no issues. For me, the benefits of a trust far outweigh those of CLEO signature. I took this from someone else and modified it a bit because I'm lazy, but here is a good breakdown.

CLEO
You have to set up appointments with CLEO (who may refuse to sign anyway, like mine).
There is additional paperwork, photographs, and finger prints!
The CLEO is an elected official. If he gets voted out, the next CLEO may not sign.
You have to meet with the CLEO each and every time to get sign off.
You as an individual own it and no one else can possess it out of your presence.
Police now know exactly what you possess.


Trust
There is less paperwork and less time for each item that you add.
You don’t need to meet with the CLEO every time you want to send in a Form 1 or Form 4.
It is easy to pass along NFA items to family members upon your death.
Co-Trustees can possess and use the NFA items outside of your presence.
No one but the ATF and your Co-Trustees know what NFA items that you possess.

Trusts usually cost less than the $200 Tax Stamp and are a one time expense. As long as you use a reputable attorney and work with them to tailor the trust to your needs you will be fine. The cases that I have heard of trusts being rejected by the ATF were from guys that used Willmaker and created their own trusts using their own language.

Originally Posted by Serbonze

Tailo will tell you that a Trust may get rejected down the line by the ATF. My opinion is that you use a qualified, well established lawyer and there will be no issues. For me, the benefits of a trust far outweigh those of CLEO signature. I took this from someone else and modified it a bit because I'm lazy, but here is a good breakdown.

CLEO
You have to set up appointments with CLEO (who may refuse to sign anyway, like mine).
There is additional paperwork, photographs, and finger prints!
The CLEO is an elected official. If he gets voted out, the next CLEO may not sign.
You have to meet with the CLEO each and every time to get sign off.
You as an individual own it and no one else can possess it out of your presence.
Police now know exactly what you possess.


Trust
There is less paperwork and less time for each item that you add.
You don’t need to meet with the CLEO every time you want to send in a Form 1 or Form 4.
It is easy to pass along NFA items to family members upon your death.
Co-Trustees can possess and use the NFA items outside of your presence.
No one but the ATF and your Co-Trustees know what NFA items that you possess.

Trusts usually cost less than the $200 Tax Stamp and are a one time expense. As long as you use a reputable attorney and work with them to tailor the trust to your needs you will be fine. The cases that I have heard of trusts being rejected by the ATF were from guys that used Willmaker and created their own trusts using their own language.

Appreciate it! What I underlined is what makes me hesitant. Then again, I suppose if SHTF, the ATF could disclose your info to the police (assumption).

Sorry for the ignorant question, but are you saying if you go with a trust you don't have to pay the NFA $200? From what I was reading, you get your trust and pay the NFA.

Also, would you have to go through the process all over if you wanted to add your next of kin in the trust? Or could you do some sort of modification?

After reading some more, it seems you don't have to pay for a stamp if you go with a trust.

Originally Posted by M3_POWER

Appreciate it! What I underlined is what makes me hesitant. Then again, I suppose if SHTF, the ATF could disclose your info to the police (assumption).

Sorry for the ignorant question, but are you saying if you go with a trust you don't have to pay the NFA $200? From what I was reading, you get your trust and pay the NFA.

Also, would you have to go through the process all over if you wanted to add your next of kin in the trust? Or could you do some sort of modification?

He's saying the trust only cost about the same as a $200 tax stamp and its a one time fee.
There are addendums/easy amendments that can be made to the trust to add/remove trustees/next of kin etc
You still pay the same nfa tax stamp for every item.

It cuts about a 2 month wait off, in Md at least since that's what it averages for cleo sign offs. With a trust you don't have to pay for finger prints or photos or worry about getting those done.

I went the trust route for mainly the reasons Jeff wrote

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App

Originally Posted by Adam@Euro-Spec

He's saying the trust only cost about the same as a $200 tax stamp and its a one time fee.
There are addendums/easy amendments that can be made to the trust to add/remove trustees/next of kin etc
You still pay the same nfa tax stamp for every item.

It cuts about a 2 month wait off, in Md at least since that's what it averages for cleo sign offs. With a trust you don't have to pay for finger prints or photos or worry about getting those done.

I went the trust route for mainly the reasons Jeff wrote

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App

Thanks Adam. I assume it's not legal to let other people handle or shoot your class III firearm, even when you're around. What is the general consensus on this matter?

Local officials knowing what I own was definitely a turn off for me. If SHTF, the coordination between the ATF and local law enforcement would be slow and difficult, in my opinion.

Regarding the Trust, I meant that you pay for the trust one time so it's not an ongoing expense. You still need to pay $200 for each tax stamp.

It's a revocable trust, so you can amend it at any time. However, my suggestion is that you contact an attorney to draw up any amendments and NOT amend it yourself. You will probably get charged for that though.

I had specific language incorporated into my trust that allows my wife to be a co-trustee but I retain the ability to act independently. That allows me to add, remove, and make any changes without the need for her signature. I also included full instructions for any trustee or co-trustee on how to legally sell the items held in the trust. Since the language of my trust does not allow trustees to act independently (except for me) I included a pre-written letter of resignation for my wife just in case she doesn't have the emotional capacity to deal with it after my death. That would leave my father as the sole successor trustee, and allow him to transport and sell all items owned by the trust.

Full disclosure - I review trusts everyday and I'm very familiar with them, although I'm not a lawyer.

Originally Posted by Serbonze

Local officials knowing what I own was definitely a turn off for me. If SHTF, the coordination between the ATF and local law enforcement would be slow and difficult, in my opinion.

Regarding the Trust, I meant that you pay for the trust one time so it's not an ongoing expense. You still need to pay $200 for each tax stamp.

It's a revocable trust, so you can amend it at any time. However, my suggestion is that you contact an attorney to draw up any amendments and NOT amend it yourself. You will probably get charged for that though.

I had specific language incorporated into my trust that allows my wife to be a co-trustee but I retain the ability to act independently. That allows me to add, remove, and make any changes without the need for her signature. I also included full instructions for any trustee or co-trustee on how to legally sell the items held in the trust. Since the language of my trust does not allow trustees to act independently (except for me) I included a pre-written letter of resignation for my wife just in case she doesn't have the emotional capacity to deal with it after my death. That would leave my father as the sole successor trustee, and allow him to transport and sell all items owned by the trust.

Full disclosure - I review trusts everyday and I'm very familiar with them, although I'm not a lawyer.

Wow, that's an extremely thorough trust. Who did you get yours through? Lets say I also get a trust for a can. If I went through the same person, would they be able to use my first trust as a starting point or template (modify it of course).

Originally Posted by M3_POWER

Thanks Adam. I assume it's not legal to let other people handle or shoot your class III firearm, even when you're around. What is the general consensus on this matter?

It is perfectly legal to allow other people to handle or use your class III items as long as you are present (assuming individual ownership) or you as trustee or a co-trustee are present (assuming you are using a trust).

This is a far-fetched scenario, but possible....
You created a Trust and you are the sole trustee. You live with your (wife, roommate, partner, fill in the blank) who is not named as a co-trustee. You are cleaning your class III item, and you realize that you need to run to the store. You don't put it in the safe that only you as sole trustee of the trust have the combination to, but in your haste you leave it on the table. The ATF decides to knock on your door for an inspection while you are out of the house. Your (wife, roommate, partner, fill in the blank) are now in possession of a class III item outside of your presence.

Originally Posted by M3_POWER

Wow, that's an extremely thorough trust. Who did you get yours through? Lets say I also get a trust for a can. If I went through the same person, would they be able to use my first trust as a starting point or template (modify it of course).

The lawyer that I used only practices in Florida, so unfortunately he will not create a trust for you in Nevada. We spent several days going back and forth getting the language to my specifications, and he had a lot of input and added things that I had not thought of since I was completely naive to NFA trusts at the time.

I'm not sure that I understand the second part of your question. Do you have an existing NFA trust, or do you have an existing revocable trust that you want to modify into an NFA trust?

Originally Posted by Serbonze

The lawyer that I used only practices in Florida, so unfortunately he will not create a trust for you in Nevada. We spent several days going back and forth getting the language to my specifications, and he had a lot of input and added things that I had not thought of since I was completely naive to NFA trusts at the time.

I'm not sure that I understand the second part of your question. Do you have an existing NFA trust, or do you have an existing revocable trust that you want to modify into an NFA trust?

I'm in FL actually. How much did it run you if you don't mind disclosing that? I'm just saying if I got a trust for an SBR and later wanted to do one for a can.

Originally Posted by Serbonze

It is perfectly legal to allow other people to handle or use your class III items as long as you are present (assuming individual ownership) or you as trustee or a co-trustee are present (assuming you are using a trust).

This is a far-fetched scenario, but possible....
You created a Trust and you are the sole trustee. You live with your (wife, roommate, partner, fill in the blank) who is not named as a co-trustee. You are cleaning your class III item, and you realize that you need to run to the store. You don't put it in the safe that only you as sole trustee of the trust have the combination to, but in your haste you leave it on the table. The ATF decides to knock on your door for an inspection while you are out of the house. Your (wife, roommate, partner, fill in the blank) are now in possession of a class III item outside of your presence.

Awesome, that's good to know!

Originally Posted by M3_POWER

I'm in FL actually. How much did it run you if you don't mind disclosing that? I'm just saying if I got a trust for an SBR and later wanted to do one for a can.

PM inbound regarding the lawyer.

You don't need to change anything on the trust when adding additional items except for the Schedule A. The schedule A is the last page and lists everything owned by the trust. You can do that yourself at home as there is no need to involve a lawyer. In addition to that, I officially assign all items that I have purchased to the trust so that there is never any question of ownership.

Originally Posted by Serbonze

PM inbound regarding the lawyer.

You don't need to change anything on the trust when adding additional items except for the Schedule A. The schedule A is the last page and lists everything owned by the trust. You can do that yourself at home as there is no need to involve a lawyer. In addition to that, I officially assign all items that I have purchased to the trust so that there is never any question of ownership.

I've been researching it for a while but I don't have my trust yet, but my understanding was that all changes (adding/removing trustees or adding new items into the trust) requires it be notarized again. Of course, that may just be a Georgia thing.

i wish my state allowed nfa items....shit i wish my state allowed a lot of things.

Move to a state that hasn't abandoned the Constitution yet then

i hear that a lot, but it really is a lot easier said than done.

this type of opression isnt something that can be outrun

Originally Posted by Wraisil

I've been researching it for a while but I don't have my trust yet, but my understanding was that all changes (adding/removing trustees or adding new items into the trust) requires it be notarized again. Of course, that may just be a Georgia thing.

Adding or removing a trustee should always be notorized. I have never heard of the need to re-sign a document to adding or remove an asset. While it's true that I have not reviewed a trust from every state, the logistical nightmare of that type of paperwork would be beyond my comprehension. We buy and sell millions of dollars of assets owned by trusts everyday, and have never had a trustee's notorized signature on the trades.

It could be a Georgia statute related to class III items, but it sounds more like an old wives tale.

ETA: I want to reiterate that I am not a lawyer nor an expert in Class III items. Always do your own research.

Just a quick note regarding the CLEO v. Trust route in your particular situation. You won't get a sign off anymore in Jax. Rutherford and his constituents at the Beach and in PV won't do it. Your only real option is to go with the trust.