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Old 02-15-2013, 03:09 PM   #61
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How much money is generated by Zuckenberg (and the resulting tax revenue) vs your garbage man friend?

Oh, and I hate to break it to you, but more than half of this country doesn't have city garbage pickup, including my town....the 2nd wealthiest area in the state. We have to pay for private companies to pick up trash for us here.
I had no garbage pickup growing up, nor would the school bus come to my house. Mountain people yeah!!!
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:10 PM   #62
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Do you honestly think the majority of 400K+ earners came from blue collar families. Do you think Zuckerberg's family was blue collar when, his college prep school tuition alone cost $35K a year. Yes, some did come from blue collar roots, but, most came from a reasonably privileged childhood, and you know it.

And what about those people who are working just as hard or harder, because they are working two jobs, most of which are manual labor, janitorial, etc. And you are demeaning those that are working their 40-50 hour per week jobs. Do you think those folks don't work hard? Most folks ain't sitting around on their a$$ eating bonbons. They are working, trying to feed house and cloth themselves and probably their children. Trying to give their kids a better life than they had. Trying to give their kids the opportunity to build a better life for themselves and have opportunities they never did. To demean their work, that they are somehow "less pure" America is utter rubbish. Don't forget that while this country was
built partly on those hard working folks that learned a good work ethic and took it to the corporate environment. It was also built on the backs of slave labor, unfair and unsafe labor practices, and plenty of people who busted their a$$es to barely scrap by.

Try living without facebook for a month and try living without refuse collection for a month. Then tell me who is more valuable. Zuckerberg making his millions a year or the sanitation worker making $40K-$70K year paying less of a percentage in taxes than Zuckerberg.
Are you really putting Zuckerberg in the same conversation as 400k+ people? You really need to understand that there are more than 3 levels of income.

Also, working hard doesn't entitle you to anything. I can work 80 hours a week on painting dead squirrels, that doesn't mean that my hard work should pay off. I think that's one of your major psychological hang-ups. You can't realize that some jobs don't warrant a certain salary. Also, sanitation guys are pretty much done working by 10am (gets there 5:30). My friend works sanitation, the union guys make 100k a year. It is a very desireable job, as is NYDS. In fact, getting in is quite competitive.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:17 PM   #63
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I keep forgetting that you hero Galt types did it all by yourselves - no help from anyone or anything. You dropped out of Mom's vag and immediately started making money out of thin air.

No infrastructure, no opportunity, no nothing but your own two hands.

Right?

I'm a commie because I think rich pricks should pay their fair share?

OK. I'm a commie. Now pay your taxes or gtfo.
If they gave up ALL their money, you'd still cry it's not their fair share.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:18 PM   #64
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Are you really putting Zuckerberg in the same conversation as 400k+ people? You really need to understand that there are more than 3 levels of income.

Also, working hard doesn't entitle you to anything. I can work 80 hours a week on painting dead squirrels, that doesn't mean that my hard work should pay off. I think that's one of your major psychological hang-ups. You can't realize that some jobs don't warrant a certain salary. Also, sanitation guys are pretty much done working by 10am (gets there 5:30). My friend works sanitation, the union guys make 100k a year. It is a very desireable job, as is NYDS. In fact, getting in is quite competitive.
One of the guys that picks up my restaurant trash (private company) used to work for the NYDS, said there is a 4 year waiting list to get those gigs.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:22 PM   #65
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If they gave up ALL their money, you'd still cry it's not their fair share.

And they kept ALL their money, you'd still whine that they're paying too much.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:25 PM   #66
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And they kept ALL their money, you'd still whine that they're paying too much.
Nope. Im all for a flat tax.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:35 PM   #67
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Do you honestly think the majority of 400K+ earners came from blue collar families. Do you think Zuckerberg's family was blue collar when, his college prep school tuition alone cost $35K a year. Yes, some did come from blue collar roots, but, most came from a reasonably privileged childhood, and you know it.

And what about those people who are working just as hard or harder, because they are working two jobs, most of which are manual labor, janitorial, etc. And you are demeaning those that are working their 40-50 hour per week jobs. Do you think those folks don't work hard? Most folks ain't sitting around on their a$$ eating bonbons. They are working, trying to feed house and cloth themselves and probably their children. Trying to give their kids a better life than they had. Trying to give their kids the opportunity to build a better life for themselves and have opportunities they never did. To demean their work, that they are somehow "less pure" America is utter rubbish. Don't forget that while this country was
built partly on those hard working folks that learned a good work ethic and took it to the corporate environment. It was also built on the backs of slave labor, unfair and unsafe labor practices, and plenty of people who busted their a$$es to barely scrap by.

Try living without facebook for a month and try living without refuse collection for a month. Then tell me who is more valuable. Zuckerberg making his millions a year or the sanitation worker making $40K-$70K year paying less of a percentage in taxes than Zuckerberg.

Didn't say "less pure" anywhere. Keep continue comparing someone worth billions to the working folks I described.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:36 PM   #68
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Nope. Im all for a flat tax.
I could see the wealthy paying more with a flat tax than they do now (federal taxes only) with the current system. A number of studies have alluded to the fact that the rate would have to be pretty high to maintain normal revenues. Take Romney, for example, and his 11% effective rate.....he would be pissed if a flat tax was enacted with a higher rate.


Gotta be a happy medium somewhere.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:48 PM   #69
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How much money is generated by Zuckenberg (and the resulting tax revenue) vs your garbage man friend?
This isn't about revenue. It is about demeaning the work of people who don't make $400K+

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Oh, and I hate to break it to you, but more than half of this country doesn't have city garbage pickup, including my town....the 2nd wealthiest area in the state. We have to pay for private companies to pick up trash for us here.
And where did I ever say this was about city employees?
Yes, we know...."its all Obama's fault"..."the govt is trying to create a new world order and enslave us all"..."gang violence is the problem and only brown people are in gangs"

Your needle is so stuck in the groove.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:53 PM   #70
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I could see the wealthy paying more with a flat tax than they do now (federal taxes only) with the current system. A number of studies have alluded to the fact that the rate would have to be pretty high to maintain normal revenues. Take Romney, for example, and his 11% effective rate.....he would be pissed if a flat tax was enacted with a higher rate.


Gotta be a happy medium somewhere.
Im fine with that. 15% flat federal PERIOD. States can do as they please. That problem solves itself. Revenues arent a problem. Spending is. You fit the government into the budget, not the budget into the government.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:54 PM   #71
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This isn't about revenue. It is about demeaning the work of people who don't make $400K+


And where did I ever say this was about city employees?
Yes, we know...."its all Obama's fault"..."the govt is trying to create a new world order and enslave us all"..."gang violence is the problem and only brown people are in gangs"

Your needle is so stuck in the groove.
It was your example, not mine. Second, no one is demeaning anyone making less than 400K, so I don't see your argument.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:11 PM   #72
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Are you really putting Zuckerberg in the same conversation as 400k+ people? You really need to understand that there are more than 3 levels of income.

Also, working hard doesn't entitle you to anything. I can work 80 hours a week on painting dead squirrels, that doesn't mean that my hard work should pay off. I think that's one of your major psychological hang-ups. You can't realize that some jobs don't warrant a certain salary. Also, sanitation guys are pretty much done working by 10am (gets there 5:30). My friend works sanitation, the union guys make 100k a year. It is a very desireable job, as is NYDS. In fact, getting in is quite competitive.
I am not putting Zuckerberg in the same group as 400K+ people. Nor am I saying that certain jobs don't warrant different higher or lower salaries. What I am saying is that, people who are working at jobs a hell of a lot lower than $400K still do valuable work. They are still hard working Americans. Whether you are making $40k or $400K or $400 million. If you are out there working to make a better life for yourself and/or you family that is a noble endeavor. A person is not "better" simply because they earn more. They are not "the purest form of America" because they have reached some specific level of income earned.

Some folks have the aptitude/smarts/education/drive/contacts/environment/luck/etc to be/become high earners. Others less so. Neither is better or worse, nor more or less "the purest form of America".

Surgeons do an important and difficult job. It takes skill, talent, determination, education, smarts, etc to do that job. And they are pretty well paid. The folks that clean the operating rooms and make sure the instruments get sterilized aren't paid nearly as much. But, that is valuable job as well. Don't think so, ask folks who were getting cut on back in the 19th century and earlier and how many of them died from infection from the surgery. Both of those jobs are important. Both of those jobs have value.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:19 PM   #73
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I am not putting Zuckerberg in the same group as 400K+ people. Nor am I saying that certain jobs don't warrant different higher or lower salaries. What I am saying is that, people who are working at jobs a hell of a lot lower than $400K still do valuable work. They are still hard working Americans. Whether you are making $40k or $400K or $400 million. If you are out there working to make a better life for yourself and/or you family that is a noble endeavor. A person is not "better" simply because they earn more. They are not "the purest form of America" because they have reached some specific level of income earned.

Some folks have the aptitude/smarts/education/drive/contacts/environment/luck/etc to be/become high earners. Others less so. Neither is better or worse, nor more or less "the purest form of America".

Surgeons do an important and difficult job. It takes skill, talent, determination, education, smarts, etc to do that job. And they are pretty well paid. The folks that clean the operating rooms and make sure the instruments get sterilized aren't paid nearly as much. But, that is valuable job as well. Don't think so, ask folks who were getting cut on back in the 19th century and earlier and how many of them died from infection from the surgery. Both of those jobs are important. Both of those jobs have value.
I don't disagree with anything in your post. I am the guy that values the "dirty jobs" people, doing jobs that most of us would never do to make our lives civilized. However, THAT, is a matter of respect. I respect a plummer as much as I respect a surgeon. Like you said, all these jobs are important, and I 110% agree. However, I do no subscribe to the belief that taxing the rich harder and harder is the answer to our problems. Like I said, the government must fit the budget, not vice versa. If you and I ran a company, and we were in debt, we would downsize, stop expanding, etc etc etc. The government knows what their revenue is going to be....thats it. They don't raise taxes. They take pay cuts, job cuts, cuts up the a$$ until the government can afford to run itself based on what it has. Then, you LOWER taxes, and once again, the government must fit into the budget. This happens over and over, until the government is operating at PEAK (not going to say 100%) efficiency. THEN, if the government is running at PEAK efficiency, and can't fit into the budget, we can talk about raising taxes.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:20 PM   #74
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Didn't say "less pure" anywhere. Keep continue comparing someone worth billions to the working folks I described.
You said
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anyone making a $400k-$1m per year represents the purest form of America
That implies that anyone making less than $400k per year is a less pure form of America.

I know more than a few of those working folks in that $400K - $1M a year. They work hard. Most work very hard, I completely agree that they do, and they earn their money, no doubt. But, that still doesn't mean their work is a "more pure form of America" than the work of those making under $400K a year.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:41 PM   #75
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I don't disagree with anything in your post. I am the guy that values the "dirty jobs" people, doing jobs that most of us would never do to make our lives civilized. However, THAT, is a matter of respect. I respect a plummer as much as I respect a surgeon. Like you said, all these jobs are important, and I 110% agree. However, I do no subscribe to the belief that taxing the rich harder and harder is the answer to our problems. Like I said, the government must fit the budget, not vice versa. If you and I ran a company, and we were in debt, we would downsize, stop expanding, etc etc etc. The government knows what their revenue is going to be....thats it. They don't raise taxes. They take pay cuts, job cuts, cuts up the a$$ until the government can afford to run itself based on what it has. Then, you LOWER taxes, and once again, the government must fit into the budget. This happens over and over, until the government is operating at PEAK (not going to say 100%) efficiency. THEN, if the government is running at PEAK efficiency, and can't fit into the budget, we can talk about raising taxes.

The govt isn't a business and shouldn't be run as one, IMO. More of non-profit corporation, IMO. It does have a responsibility to the community to sometimes give out to those in need more than those not in need. To gladly take money from the more well heeled and use it to help those less fortunate get on their feet. (not give them a free meal ticket forever). It can, sometimes run at a small deficit for small periods of time, if it needs to.

I am all for a flat tax with no deductions. Even a graduated flat tax for a while to make the transition and the graduated portion goes directly towards the deficit. 15% for the first 75K, 17% for the next 100K, 19% for 175K-500K, 20% for 500K and above. OK, does that still put a bigger percentage burden on the more more well off, yeah it does. But, they can absorb it easier. They ain't gonna miss a meal, as the saying goes. Life is a b!tch and it ain't always fair. Hard cheese...suck it up, buttercup.


I don't expect the govt to run at PEAK efficiency. Its the freakin govt. I am realistic. More efficient than it is today, hell yes. But, in really large organizations, there are some upsides to a bit of bureaucracy. It keep things on the rails. Makes sure people follow the rules they really are supposed to.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:16 PM   #76
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If you live overseas and make over half a million dollars a year, I bet you guys would change your mind rather quickly. Unless you enjoy paying 70-80% effective tax rates.
Know how I know you're not a real American?
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:18 PM   #77
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I am not putting Zuckerberg in the same group as 400K+ people. Nor am I saying that certain jobs don't warrant different higher or lower salaries. What I am saying is that, people who are working at jobs a hell of a lot lower than $400K still do valuable work. They are still hard working Americans. Whether you are making $40k or $400K or $400 million. If you are out there working to make a better life for yourself and/or you family that is a noble endeavor. A person is not "better" simply because they earn more. They are not "the purest form of America" because they have reached some specific level of income earned.

Some folks have the aptitude/smarts/education/drive/contacts/environment/luck/etc to be/become high earners. Others less so. Neither is better or worse, nor more or less "the purest form of America".

Surgeons do an important and difficult job. It takes skill, talent, determination, education, smarts, etc to do that job. And they are pretty well paid. The folks that clean the operating rooms and make sure the instruments get sterilized aren't paid nearly as much. But, that is valuable job as well. Don't think so, ask folks who were getting cut on back in the 19th century and earlier and how many of them died from infection from the surgery. Both of those jobs are important. Both of those jobs have value.
Creating value isn't the only component for determining salary. Things like stress, expertise, attention to detail, responsibilities, passion/devotion, and service are also critical factors. Surgeons and most salaried professions are compensated about right imo for this country. Salaried professionals like myself give up my personal time, my time with my family, vacations, time to run errands, etc. I think it's safe to say with the amount of work high functioning professionals are required to do and the time they put in, the little bit of extra monetary compensation shouldn't be an issue and in fact encouraged. People don't like it, well shut it, educate yourself (not necessarily in the form of a degree), and better yourself like those of us who do it humbly. Boohoo the world isn't a fair place and not every thing can be equal.

Surgeons are usually required to be on call 24 hrs/day 7 days a week. I'm sure the schedules of the other hospital personnel are much more lax btw.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:25 PM   #78
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Surgeons are usually required to be on call 24 hrs/day 7 days a week. I'm sure the schedules of the other hospital personnel are much more lax btw.
My hours are, literally, "as long as you need to do it". When I'm on trial this includes working all weekend, nights, etc. I don't get to punch out and say not my chair, not my problem.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:29 PM   #79
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My hours are, literally, "as long as you need to do it". When I'm on trial this includes working all weekend, nights, etc. I don't get to punch out and say not my chair, not my problem.
Hell I've worked longer than the manufacturing hourly associates some days for my product trials. 14,15,16 hour days...at that point my pay per hour is less than what they make.

I can't just walk out in the middle of a product trial and have the attitude of "the hell with it. I've already worked my 8 or 9 hours today...the customer gets what the customer gets". I would no longer be employed at that point.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:41 PM   #80
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Isn't federal income tax voluntary?

Is not illegal to put a mandatory tax on a simple work in exchange for money scenario?

I am not proud to be an American, because it is NOT something I worked hard to achieve; I was merely born here.

I don't see myself as an American citizen, because I do not believe in imaginary lines that divide this country, or this planet for that matter, nor do I subscribe to the illusion that enforces this type of thought.

Countries, States, Province's to me are just names that refer to regions, or coordinates on the earth.
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