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Old 02-15-2013, 05:43 PM   #81
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Hell I've worked longer than the manufacturing hourly associates some days for my product trials. 14,15,16 hour days...at that point my pay per hour is less than what they make.

I can't just walk out in the middle of a product trial and have the attitude of "the hell with it. I've already worked my 8 or 9 hours today...the customer gets what the customer gets". I would no longer be employed at that point.
oh yeah, I get paid the same no matter how many hours I work. That's called being a professional
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:44 PM   #82
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oh yeah, I get paid the same no matter how many hours I work. That's called being a professional
And some people have the nerve to believe all jobs are equal and should be compensated as such.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:18 PM   #83
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Isn't federal income tax voluntary?

Is not illegal to put a mandatory tax on a simple work in exchange for money scenario?

I am not proud to be an American, because it is NOT something I worked hard to achieve; I was merely born here.

I don't see myself as an American citizen, because I do not believe in imaginary lines that divide this country, or this planet for that matter, nor do I subscribe to the illusion that enforces this type of thought.

Countries, States, Province's to me are just names that refer to regions, or coordinates on the earth.

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Old 02-15-2013, 06:56 PM   #84
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:58 PM   #85
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Creating value isn't the only component for determining salary. Things like stress, expertise, attention to detail, responsibilities, passion/devotion, and service are also critical factors. Surgeons and most salaried professions are compensated about right imo for this country. Salaried professionals like myself give up my personal time, my time with my family, vacations, time to run errands, etc. I think it's safe to say with the amount of work high functioning professionals are required to do and the time they put in, the little bit of extra monetary compensation shouldn't be an issue and in fact encouraged. People don't like it, well shut it, educate yourself (not necessarily in the form of a degree), and better yourself like those of us who do it humbly. Boohoo the world isn't a fair place and not every thing can be equal.

Surgeons are usually required to be on call 24 hrs/day 7 days a week. I'm sure the schedules of the other hospital personnel are much more lax btw.
Where in hades did I ever say I take issue with the delta in monetary comp. I am a high functioning salaried professional as well. I understand the trade-offs.

And you are right, the world isn't a fair place. So all those people (including myself) who pay more in taxes than others who make less should just need to accept that the world isn't a fair place. (I accept this) You make more, you pay more. Suck it up, buttercup.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:15 PM   #86
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oh yeah, I get paid the same no matter how many hours I work. That's called being a professional


Its called being a salaried or exempt employee. You get paid to do something, you make your living do that thing, you are a professional. Pure and simple.

And truth is, when one works all those hours, one can often be making substantially lower than hourly market rate for a lower skilled/lower paying job.

A quarter of century working in tech, I have worked more 80 hour weeks than many people have had hot dinners. It has its costs: friends, relationships, a life outside of work. Do i regret doing it, no. If I had it to do over again, would I....eh, not so sure it would be worth.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:24 PM   #87
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Its called being a salaried or exempt employee. You get paid to do something, you make your living do that thing, you are a professional. Pure and simple.

And truth is, when one works all those hours, one can often be making substantially lower than hourly market rate for a lower skilled/lower paying job.

A quarter of century working in tech, I have worked more 80 hour weeks than many people have had hot dinners. It has its costs: friends, relationships, a life outside of work. Do i regret doing it, no. If I had it to do over again, would I....eh, not so sure it would be worth.
Exactly, you made a sacrifice. No need to support those not willing to do the same because it was more fun hanging out hoping their band got signed
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:54 PM   #88
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Exactly, you made a sacrifice. No need to support those not willing to do the same because it was more fun hanging out hoping their band got signed
No need not to support them either.

But, that was not the point. The point was that the value of people's "americaness" is not a graph based on how much one earns. There is dignity to be found in work all along the wage scale.

We have set up a society were anything less than "the big house on the hill over looking the stewage below" is failure. That is balderdash. It is this mentality that creates a huge social divide and fuels "class warfare".

I didn't make a sacrifice, I made a choice. I never said it was the right choice. In some ways it was, in others it was not. That is the point. If somebody makes the choice to go out and make a big chunk of cash, great. More power to them. They know that part of that choice, if they succeed will be a higher tax bracket. It is a repercussion of the choice they make.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:08 PM   #89
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No need not to support them either.

But, that was not the point. The point was that the value of people's "americaness" is not a graph based on how much one earns. There is dignity to be found in work all along the wage scale.

We have set up a society were anything less than "the big house on the hill over looking the stewage below" is failure. That is balderdash. It is this mentality that creates a huge social divide and fuels "class warfare".

I didn't make a sacrifice, I made a choice. I never said it was the right choice. In some ways it was, in others it was not. That is the point. If somebody makes the choice to go out and make a big chunk of cash, great. More power to them. They know that part of that choice, if they succeed will be a higher tax bracket. It is a repercussion of the choice they make.
I don't agree with the bold. Hell, I don't even want that life. I want a comfortable life, with a decent home, a nice yard for the kids to play in, and for the government to keep their hands away from my family, my property, my guns and my money. The millionaires are just scapegoats IMHO.

I also disagree with your last paragraph, although that is personal. I view that as sacrifice. I worked two jobs when all my friends were out partying, hanging out with chicks, whatever. I spent my college years slaving away at work and studying (and saving) while they all went out and had a good time. I sacrificed social time, fun, a nice car, etc, all for the smarter move of saving/investing my money, building my resume with work, etc. A sacrifice doesn't have to be painful. All sacrifices are choices.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:21 AM   #90
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I don't agree with the bold. Hell, I don't even want that life. I want a comfortable life, with a decent home, a nice yard for the kids to play in, and for the government to keep their hands away from my family, my property, my guns and my money. The millionaires are just scapegoats IMHO.
Christ on a bike!!! This is not about scapegoating millionaires. It is about generational social expectations. I'm glad you have realistic expectations, I hope you pass them on. Most people don't. When people are told you have to be a college degreed, white collar, doctor/lawyer/accountant/investment banker/engineer making well into six figures to be a "success" and a "the purest form of american", and most people realize they aren't going to achieve that no matter how hard they try. People wonder why you have a generation(s) of work apathy? Maybe its because I saw this in the UK in the 70's and the emergence of the punk movement.

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I also disagree with your last paragraph, although that is personal. I view that as sacrifice. I worked two jobs when all my friends were out partying, hanging out with chicks, whatever. I spent my college years slaving away at work and studying (and saving) while they all went out and had a good time. I sacrificed social time, fun, a nice car, etc, all for the smarter move of saving/investing my money, building my resume with work, etc. A sacrifice doesn't have to be painful. All sacrifices are choices.
I did the same. In my 30's, I looked on it as a sacrifice. In my 40's I now see it was just a choice. It wasn't "noble", it wasn't "the right thing to do", it just is. If I had made a different choice my life would be different. Not better, not worse, just different. Good and bad are relative things and usually based on an outsider's view of something. I am happy where I am. That doesn't mean if I had made different choices, different work and/or school vs life trade-offs I wouldn't be happy with those.

I think people want to think of them as sacrifices because they do regret and guilt.
"Oh if only I had done ..fill_in_the_blank.. my life would be better." "Oh...I did (or didn't) do (x, y, or z) like I should have...and now my life is ruined. Oh woe is me. I made the wrong decision. Everything that is wrong in my life comes back to this bad decision....if only I could go back!! Mea culpa, mea culpa!" Its just nauseating.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:03 AM   #91
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Christ on a bike!!! This is not about scapegoating millionaires. It is about generational social expectations. I'm glad you have realistic expectations, I hope you pass them on. Most people don't. When people are told you have to be a college degreed, white collar, doctor/lawyer/accountant/investment banker/engineer making well into six figures to be a "success" and a "the purest form of american", and most people realize they aren't going to achieve that no matter how hard they try. People wonder why you have a generation(s) of work apathy? Maybe its because I saw this in the UK in the 70's and the emergence of the punk movement.



I did the same. In my 30's, I looked on it as a sacrifice. In my 40's I now see it was just a choice. It wasn't "noble", it wasn't "the right thing to do", it just is. If I had made a different choice my life would be different. Not better, not worse, just different. Good and bad are relative things and usually based on an outsider's view of something. I am happy where I am. That doesn't mean if I had made different choices, different work and/or school vs life trade-offs I wouldn't be happy with those.

I think people want to think of them as sacrifices because they do regret and guilt.
"Oh if only I had done ..fill_in_the_blank.. my life would be better." "Oh...I did (or didn't) do (x, y, or z) like I should have...and now my life is ruined. Oh woe is me. I made the wrong decision. Everything that is wrong in my life comes back to this bad decision....if only I could go back!! Mea culpa, mea culpa!" Its just nauseating.
I guess my point is pretty simple...taxing money is like gun control in many respects. You do whatever you want, the results will be minimal. Millionaires and billionaries will always shelter their money. They have the ability to move it around, etc etc etc. They always have, and they always will (lets also not forget they have plenty of politicians in their pockets as well.) As a result, the people who REALLY get hosed are those of us stuck in the middle. Someone needs to make up the difference the government was EXPECTING to get from the millionaires, and when that money doesn't show up, someone else will pay. Just like you are being realistic knowing that the government will never run at peak efficiency (lets be honest, they are probably not even running at 50%), the same can be said about these "expected" tax revenues....they are just paper numbers.

P.S. Did they have bicycles during the Christ periods
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:08 AM   #92
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Christ on a bike!!! This is not about scapegoating millionaires. It is about generational social expectations. I'm glad you have realistic expectations, I hope you pass them on. Most people don't. When people are told you have to be a college degreed, white collar, doctor/lawyer/accountant/investment banker/engineer making well into six figures to be a "success" and a "the purest form of american", and most people realize they aren't going to achieve that no matter how hard they try. People wonder why you have a generation(s) of work apathy? Maybe its because I saw this in the UK in the 70's and the emergence of the punk movement.



I did the same. In my 30's, I looked on it as a sacrifice. In my 40's I now see it was just a choice. It wasn't "noble", it wasn't "the right thing to do", it just is. If I had made a different choice my life would be different. Not better, not worse, just different. Good and bad are relative things and usually based on an outsider's view of something. I am happy where I am. That doesn't mean if I had made different choices, different work and/or school vs life trade-offs I wouldn't be happy with those.

I think people want to think of them as sacrifices because they do regret and guilt.
"Oh if only I had done ..fill_in_the_blank.. my life would be better." "Oh...I did (or didn't) do (x, y, or z) like I should have...and now my life is ruined. Oh woe is me. I made the wrong decision. Everything that is wrong in my life comes back to this bad decision....if only I could go back!! Mea culpa, mea culpa!" Its just nauseating.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:22 AM   #93
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Where in hades did I ever say I take issue with the delta in monetary comp. I am a high functioning salaried professional as well. I understand the trade-offs.

And you are right, the world isn't a fair place. So all those people (including myself) who pay more in taxes than others who make less should just need to accept that the world isn't a fair place. (I accept this) You make more, you pay more. Suck it up, buttercup.
Paying more taxes is not the issue I have although it can be argued vice versa depending on your stance. It's about closing the gap in pay differences among professions as it appeared you were eluding to. Who's to say your "morals" are right? About having to pay more for the lesser in our society? For someone with no "morals", you sure do stand up for the little guy a lot.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:14 AM   #94
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Paying more taxes is not the issue I have although it can be argued vice versa depending on your stance. It's about closing the gap in pay differences among professions as it appeared you were eluding to. Who's to say your "morals" are right? About having to pay more for the lesser in our society? For someone with no "morals", you sure do stand up for the little guy a lot.
I was not saying that anything about the pay gap was at issue.

My "morals" are non-existent so they are neither right or wrong.

"Standing up for the little guy" has nothing to do with morality (at least in my case) It is pragmatism, pure and simple. If the "little guy" is trodden under foot, be it socially, economically, and/or politically we will eventually revert to serfdom and likely monarchy, where the people lose their control over the government. We have already slid that way. Many people have given up control over the govt and they desire a monarch. Look at the Paulites in the last election and the Obamaites the election before. Many believed a POTUS could come in and magically fix things, when the POTUS doesn't have that power. The POTUS doesn't have the power to balance the budget or curb spending. Congress does. And how many incumbents won re-election? 90%. Look at all the people who supported the Patriot Act. So quick to give up freedom in the name of "safety". We still have a chance of turning things around. You take away the "little guy" and revert to serfdom, we have no chance.

I have seen this before in the UK in the 70's. I understand the political influence of the punk movement in the UK in the 70s. When you have a generation stand up and say "Yeah, we are on the dole, and we know we have no future, so all of you look around. This is what you are gonna get" Scared the living $h!t out of politicians, the upper class, and the middle class. And things changed. When you have Johnnie Rotten and Sid Vicious standing on a stage gooing "We're the future, your future." The people have a tendency to p!$$ themselves, then figure out a way to make sure that doesn't happen.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:21 PM   #95
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:45 PM   #96
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I thought I was the only Pistols fan left.
Been since late spring of '76. Arguably one of the 5 most important bands of the 20th century. Solely based on how people reacted to their stuff.
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