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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 03-07-2013, 02:42 PM   #1
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My girlfriend sent me an article that has me scratching my head.

http://m.theatlanticcities.com/polit...m-deaths/4902/

By "homicide," are they using the term literally? As in, are they including murders AND self-defense shootings?
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:01 PM   #2
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Stopped reading after this... Complete BS

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The study found that states with the strictest gun control laws had lower rates of gun-related homicides and suicides, though it notes that these findings are limited to associations and could not determine precise cause-and-effect.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:02 PM   #3
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Any gun stats that include suicide = worthless/biased/slanted

How on earth does someone killing themself with a pistol justify gun control? It doesn't... but they lump those numbers in to skew everything.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:08 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by 2000_328CI View Post
Any gun stats that include suicide = worthless/biased/slanted

How on earth does someone killing themself with a pistol justify gun control? It doesn't... but they lump those numbers in to skew everything.
Might as well conduct a study to determine if a certain drug dosage is dangerous or not (but be sure to include those that intentionally OD on them)
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:14 PM   #5
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Stopped reading after this... Complete BS
I quit reading after I saw the author's last name was Florida
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:39 PM   #6
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I figured you guys would enjoy the skewing of numbers and figures.

But what does it matter? GUNS ARE BAD M'KAY?!
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:02 PM   #7
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Just right off the bat I can tell its BS.

Florida is know for its pro gun stance. You do not even need a CWL to carry a loaded gun in your center console, glove box, or under your seat in a holster.

Yet, on that chart is has less deaths that many other states with stricter gun control.

Compare North and South Dakota to California.

North and South Dakota combined have 600 deaths and California has 12,000.

California could be at 8.0 and North and South Dakota are below 10.2 (could be as low as 8.1) yet they are in Q1 for laws vs the USSC being in the Q4.

With 600 deaths, these could be anything from suicide to accidents, shootings by cop, self defense, to whatever.

PS - any stats on fully automatic weapon deaths?

Assault rifles with 30 round magazine deaths?

Research Australia and England gun control before and after.
Research Switzerland gun crime vs ownership.

Switzerland has the world’s third-highest number of privately held guns per person, after the United States and Yemen, an outgrowth of its unique military culture. Their gun related homicide rate is 1 per 200,000.

That is all that needs to be reviewed.
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:56 PM   #8
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Stopped reading after this... Complete BS
Many, many scientific research papers are an association analysis. You should not dismiss it because it is not cause-and-effect.

The only way to determine the true association is if it were under experimental conditions. For a ridiculous example, if took X number of people, gave them guns, and told them to live in a town, then took X number of people without guns and told them to live in a town, and then saw who died more after legislation, that would be a cause/effect study. There is no exception to this rule: they must be able to control the conditions in order to know cause/effect. This is not possible in many controversial studies (e.g. global warming, smoking deaths, stuff like that)

The only way these studies can be done is through relationship analysis. A well-designed study controls for these confounding variables, which it looks like they tried to do:

Quote:
controlling for other factors thought to be associated with gun deaths including age, sex, race and ethnicity, poverty, unemployment, college education, population density, other violence-related deaths, and firearm ownership.
So they don't really know, but they tried.

The paper is straight-forward with what they are trying to determine:

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Our primary outcome measures were overall firearm-related fatality rates per 100 000 individuals per year.
That includes suicides.

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Originally Posted by 2000_328CI View Post
Any gun stats that include suicide = worthless/biased/slanted

How on earth does someone killing themself with a pistol justify gun control? It doesn't... but they lump those numbers in to skew everything.
They also address this as well.

Quote:
The rates for firearm suicides and firearm homicides were considered separately.
That being said, I don't want to read the entire scientific paper to see how they controlled for the factors. Because frankly, I don't care enough to read it all. It's long. It's not exciting. It doesn't currently affect me. I have other articles I need to read for my job. But it's good to have in my database of useful stuff to read.

If one wishes to vote or make decisions on these laws, it is important to read these scientific articles (not just summaries) that are published on these subjects, and make your own decision based upon it. All the questions you guys have about the study can be answered in the study methodology paper itself. It can be found here:

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...icleid=1661390

The problem here is how the website you posted is trying to report it. Read the article if you want the full story. Never trust someone else's summary.

News = bad. Science = good. News reporters have no idea what they're reading. They're stupid puppets that parrot whatever words in the article will garner the most attention.


As a statistician, from my standpoint, the study isn't all that bad. I'm sure it has its flaws, but like I said, I am not going to spend all that time picking it apart unless it has some sort of direct effect on me and my guns at some point; then I'll look into it and see how well they really did. And if they actually did well, I'll take the study into strong consideration. If they didn't, then I'll not take the study into strong consideration. That's how I make my choices.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:58 AM   #9
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This goes against what the FBI UCR statistics say, as well as CDC information. Politically related information gleaned from hospital studies are inherently biased due to them being heavily political in nature, or having an agenda for doing them since that is outside of their scope of business.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:48 AM   #10
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This goes against what the FBI UCR statistics say, as well as CDC information. Politically related information gleaned from hospital studies are inherently biased due to them being heavily political in nature, or having an agenda for doing them since that is outside of their scope of business.
It's certainly a strong possibility to consider, especially considering a lot of funding came from the Joyce foundation. Though they report no conflict of interest, it is clear that they did correspond with a very strong gun control organization in order to receive funding.

Quote:
Funding/Support: Dr Hemenway received funding from the Joyce Foundation to conduct and disseminate research on firearms.
If there were any strong reason to question the results of the study, that would be would be it. They wouldn't have funded this study if they didn't expect results that suggested less gun control is better. It would be worthwhile to contact the author for more information about why they conducted the study, and the integrity of the data.

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Author Contributions: Dr Fleegler has had full access to all the data in the study and takes responsibility for the integrity of the data and the accuracy of the data analysis. Study concept and design: Fleegler, Lee, and Mannix. Acquisition of data: Fleegler and Mannix. Analysis and interpretation of data: Fleegler, Lee, Monuteaux, Hemenway, and Mannix.
Eric.Fleegler@childrens.harvard.edu
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:15 AM   #11
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Compare North and South Dakota to California.

North and South Dakota combined have 600 deaths and California has 12,000.

California could be at 8.0 and North and South Dakota are below 10.2 (could be as low as 8.1) yet they are in Q1 for laws vs the USSC being in the Q4.

With 600 deaths, these could be anything from suicide to accidents, shootings by cop, self defense, to whatever.
I'd just like to point out that North and South Dakota have a combined population of something like 1-2 million where California has 50 million so comparing the lowest populated state with the highest populated state by raw numbers is a terrible idea....statistically speaking.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:10 AM   #12
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I'd just like to point out that North and South Dakota have a combined population of something like 1-2 million where California has 50 million so comparing the lowest populated state with the highest populated state by raw numbers is a terrible idea....statistically speaking.
Did you actually read what I posted?

That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that ND and SD have very little gun leg and they only had 600 deaths. On such a low number the % of murder to others can be dramatically skewed.

In addition, ND and SD are only one level away from Cali in death RATIO yet they are polar opposites in gun legislation.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:48 AM   #13
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ND and SD:
Fargo is home to NDSU, Grand Forks is home to UND, Aberdeen is home to SDSU and Sioux Falls is home to University of Sioux Falls. All of these cities do have gun-related crime. They are also big athletic schools, and most of the crime comes from hoodrats who are there for athletics and are from someplace else like Illinois or KC. Coincidence? Nope. Proof positive that the problem isn't gun control, it's shithead control.
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