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Political Talk
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:23 AM   #41
vilseck21
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Originally Posted by Cabrio330 View Post
Since you asked, I will answer, but understand that I recognize my interpretation isn't really that important, since I am not privy to ALL of the intelligence that went into the decision making process. But, based on what I have read, both for and against the decision, and the fact that politicians (more on this next) on both sides of the aisle voted in support, I am comfortable the decision was the right one.

Vilseck and others here may be privy to more information than me, but without access to ALL of the intelligence, their their conclusions are not any more valid. Put simply, you don't know what you don't know.

As for politicians - It is the duty of citizens to have a healthy dose of skepticism about any decisions or actions our federal governement, so I don't fault people for having less comfort than me in this case, and I can understand they may feel this was a bad/incorrect decision. Heck, even I see pols like Hillary Clinton supporting the decision and I can't help but think she is doing so merely for politicial expediency.

I just find it ridiculous that people claim to know with certainty, when they cannot possibly be certain. Just like I find it laughable when people decide our politicians are liars because Saddam said he didn't have WMD. Really? You are going to give more credence to what he says over your own politicians? Because, you know, Saddam had no reason to lie, right?
Actually after the 9/11 commission reports were released, and the media got a hold of "curve ball", among many many other thing that have been released, every thing about the whole fiasco can be found on open sourese(internet), most information can be easily found.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:26 AM   #42
vilseck21
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Originally Posted by Cabrio330 View Post
Seems pretty clear from vilseck's last couple of posts that he holds strong views against military action. And that is perfectly fine. But I think I'll choose to discount his perception and interpretation of the intelligence accordingly.
I am in the military and the IC, I don't not hold strong views against military action, I just don't believe we should be an open aggressor like we were in Iraq. As a matter of fact if we are going to do kinetic activity we should do the job right and until it is done like we did in WW2, non of this half ass **** since Korea.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:27 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
It was dismantling the true believers in the German government while leaving the people loyal to Germany in place that allowed Germany to function after World War 2.
Most of the German population was brain washed, we just destroyed their will to fight. There were only a handful of American killed during the occupation of Germany after WW2, the people just did not have the will to fight any more.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:28 AM   #44
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It's too bad congress has no power to stop things like that from happening.
agreed,
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:29 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Cabrio330 View Post
Since you asked, I will answer, but understand that I recognize my interpretation isn't really that important, since I am not privy to ALL of the intelligence that went into the decision making process. But, based on what I have read, both for and against the decision, and the fact that politicians (more on this next) on both sides of the aisle voted in support, I am comfortable the decision was the right one.
In whole, yes, both Democrats and Republicans voted for the war. However, I wouldn't necessarily call it a complete bi-partisan vote. If you look at the numbers, Republican votes far outweighed the Democrats in both the House and Senate. But that is neither here, nor there. What is important is the timing and context in which the decision was made - given the backdrop of 9/11 and America wanting to conduct offensive actions to prevent future attacks.

Quick summary of voting Numbers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrio330 View Post
Vilseck and others here may be privy to more information than me, but without access to ALL of the intelligence, their their conclusions are not any more valid. Put simply, you don't know what you don't know.
I'd argue otherwise. They may not be privy to all the info, but being more informed makes their assessment more complete and closer to the truth. Reason being is that some of us have been in this business a while

That said, there has been plenty of documentation released about the war - including material that has been unclassified. You just need to know where to find it. These include items such as the 9/11 Commission Report, what happened with the Valerie Plame affair, The story and documentation on Curveball, and documentaries such as "No End in Sight." You can even go to the CIA.gov website, to their online library, and find a good reading list and lesson learned documents. Furthermore, you can google the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iraq in 2002 that was presented to Congress before the war started. It's a document that is an intelligence summary as to what the Intel Community thought and what was presented to our leaders at the time.

Declassified NIE of 2002, in case you want to read it: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB129/nie.pdf

Or, here is a cliff notes version of the key judgements on Iraq:

https://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/iraq-wmd.html

To say, "you don't know what you don't know" is fine, however with all the material out there presently, the responsibility is on us to research and educate ourselves. That way we do know what we need to know, identify our gaps in knowledge, and look to fill those gaps as best we can. Let's not make "i don't know what I don't know" into an excuse because that's just ignorant.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrio330 View Post
I just find it ridiculous that people claim to know with certainty, when they cannot possibly be certain. Just like I find it laughable when people decide our politicians are liars because Saddam said he didn't have WMD. Really? You are going to give more credence to what he says over your own politicians? Because, you know, Saddam had no reason to lie, right?
You can know with certainty now that hindsight is 20/20. I can say for certain that we should have never invaded in Iraq.

As to giving credence to what our politicians say and what Saddam is said, it's not that simple. The answer, in the case of the run up to the Iraq war, in part has its roots in social behavior and human flaw - namely confirmation bias and group think.

-----------------

At the end of the day, what's done is done. I can only hope that in the future, the Iraq war is used as a case study for lessons learned. Hopefully future leaders of our country and future generations will learn from it.

Last edited by MDydinanM; 03-22-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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