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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 03-23-2013, 06:42 PM   #1
Reedo302
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Why do I keep doing this to myself??

So there I am on a local gun board - I should know better - but I'm there anyways. There is a thread about "least acceptable defense caliber". You have your usual people talking the hyperbole of .45 being the best because they don't make a .46,
Then you have a couple people that start spouting off about how it doesn't matter, and a .22 is just as good as a .40 because shot placement is all that matters and using caliber as an excuse for not stopping the bad guy is a cop out. The usual armchair ninjas claiming that they will shoot the perp in the face from 30 feet in the dark under stress which they magically won't succumb to.


So I post this:

Quote:
To each their own, but other things to consider are bullet construction, terminal and external ballistics, and weapon operation. I rarely have encountered a rimfire pistol that is as reliable as say, a Glock or S&W M&P. Small calibers below 9mm Para are demonstrably less powerful, and do not meet FBI Ballistics Lab criteria for performance with JHP loads.

With handgun rounds, the energy is not high enough to cause any significant damage from the temporary crush cavitation. The only damage that reliably affects is the permanent crush cavity, which is the hole the bullet makes. Since micro/pocket calibers like .380, .32 and .25 don't meet FBI penetration depth criteria with JHPs, FMJs work better for penetration. However, FMJ bullets create sub-caliber wound channels.

.22LR is generally not a good idea, because it's unpredictable. They do not have reliable performance characteristics, so it's impossible to predict how they will behave. Things like dense bone can deflect them or cause them to fragment, which bleeds off energy rapidly and inhibits penetration. They also are easier to defeat with barriers. In contrast, performance of JHPs in combat calibers like 9mm, .40, .357sig and .45 (among others) can be reliably predicted. These combat calibers also perform better through barriers.

A good place to start reading is here:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887


So Dipshit-in-Chief posts this in response:

Quote:
Seriously dude?

COMBAT calibers....? WTF are you talking about? FMJ's making sub-caliber wound channels? .22 being not a good idea because it is unpredictable?

I challenge you to find me a "Combat Pistol" in a "Combat Caliber" as reliable as a .22 REVOLVER - thats first... Second, there is nothing wrong with a .22 for SD at all - you just may have to shoot more than a couple of times - which is standard practice anyhow.. But you should know that - shoot until hostilities cease... Usually 1-3 shots with any caliber..

While I agree with some of what you are saying, you are a bit of a blowhard about it. Nobody gives a rats arse about the Miami Shootout - and that was a failure of the SHOOTERS / Tactics employed and not so much the guns/ammunition. Substitution of horsepower for marksmanship is a bad idea.

Let me tell you one thing - the FBI in their infinite wisdom doesnt know squat about guns look at their track record with their issue guns. Lets knee jerk after Miami and give people a 10mm - yeah thats a good plan give a bunch of accountants a 10mm and see how that works. It didnt.

Don't go spouting off about the FBI and their expertise regarding firearms.


Sigh....





And yes, I responded. I shouldn't have, but I did...

Quote:
At no time in this statement have you made any reference to verifiable data to back this up. It sounds to me like you have an agenda to hate on the FBI and that is clouding the logic. If you can post technical data by credible sources, you may have an argument. However, many of the statements are incorrect, including the Miami Shootout statement. Michael Lee Platt was hit with what should have been lethal impacts, but the rounds did not penetrate deep enough to be effective. That's not tactics, that's equipment. Tactics can always be better, and there's always room for improvement, but the failure was with the ammunition.

If anyone here has questions, go to that link I posted above on M4Carbine.net and contact DocGKR, who is actually Dr. Gary Roberts of the IWBA. He's considered one of the foremost authorities on ballistics right now, and is up there with other respected experts like SSA Buford Boone and Dr Martin Fackler. The information I posted is some of the stuff he's helped validate. Every ammunition manufacturer making duty/defense ammunition strives to meet the ballistic standards recommended by the FBI BRF. This includes Federal, Speer, Hornady, Remington, Winchester, Black HIlls, etc. Everyone here is more than welcome to contact firearms manufacturers and ask them about their development using FBI BRF standards.

If you want further evidence of this, Hornady made it nice and visible and plain as day with their Critical Duty ammunition.
Quote:
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/ha...5-gr-9mm-luger

Law enforcement and tactical professionals now have a truly advanced, 21st century handgun ammunition solution that delivers the most consistent and reliable urban barrier performance ever created! The proven Flex Tip® design of the new FlexLock® bullet eliminates clogging and aids bullet expansion. Its large mechanical jacket-tocore InterLock® band works to keep the bullet and core from separating for maximum weight retention and proven terminal performance through all FBI test barriers.

The patented Hornady® Flex Tip® design of the FlexLock® bullet eliminates clogging and aids bullet expansion. A large mechanical jacket-to-core InterLock® band works to keep the bullet and core from separating for maximum weight retention, excellent expansion and consistent penetration and terminal performance through all FBI test barriers.

The FlexLock® is an “intelligent bullet” that reacts differently depending on the barrier it encounters, delivering “barrier blind” performance after penetrating urban barriers such as plywood, sheet metal and even auto glass.

Bright nickel plated cases eliminate cartridge case tarnish, and the highly visible silver nickel simplifies chamber checks in reduced light. Additionally, all Critical DUTY® ammunition is loaded with low flash propellant to help preserve night vision in low-light firing.

For the ultimate in tactical terminal ballistic performance through all FBI established urban barriers, choose Critical DUTY® ammunition
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:48 PM   #2
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Obviously you didn't mention stopping power that .45 has over 9mm and 40. So your whole argument is fail








I need to find a few boxes of a 9mm carry round.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:48 PM   #3
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His .22 does just fine in COD. It's like a 2 shot kill.
Noobs will be noobs. Reliability is a moot point and shouldn't even really be presented because you can find a reliable gun in any standard caliber.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:54 PM   #4
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i get baited all of the time. dont feel bad just cant help it sometimes..
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:57 PM   #5
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If its any consolation, I pretty much stopped visiting my local boards. I really find it no different than the conversations overheard at typical gun store counters, with just a little more ego stroking and one upmanship thrown in for good measure. While I don't have your knowledge base, I still feel that I'm pretty well informed regarding a few subjects from either research or first hand experience.

I've grown tired of trying to convince people that the extra money spent up front for quality equipment will pay off in the end. I'm done trying to argue the benefits of a forged vs polymer lower, of Glock over a Hi-Point, or 9mm vs .45.

Sure, I keep tabs on what is going on, but I find that I start to reply and then delete the response. It's just not worth it.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbonze View Post
If its any consolation, I pretty much stopped visiting my local boards. I really find it no different than the conversations overheard at typical gun store counters, with just a little more ego stroking and one upmanship thrown in for good measure. While I don't have your knowledge base, I still feel that I'm pretty well informed regarding a few subjects from either research or first hand experience.

I've grown tired of trying to convince people that the extra money spent up front for quality equipment will pay off in the end. I'm done trying to argue the benefits of a forged vs polymer lower, of Glock over a Hi-Point, or 9mm vs .45.

Sure, I keep tabs on what is going on, but I find that I start to reply and then delete the response. It's just not worth it.
I bought some 7.62x54r the other day from a local forum member who trusts him and his families life to a hi point 45 that he thinks is a great gun and looks pretty cool. He wants another 45 but doesnt see the point of buying most since his hi point holds more ammo and he wants a gaudy double stack that looks like (he said some ridiculous movie character) would use. I just
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:22 AM   #7
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I really should have known better. It's almost my fault for trying to post facts. VERBOTEN!!
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
So there I am on a local gun board - I should know better - but I'm there anyways. There is a thread about "least acceptable defense caliber". You have your usual people talking the hyperbole of .45 being the best because they don't make a .46,
Then you have a couple people that start spouting off about how it doesn't matter, and a .22 is just as good as a .40 because shot placement is all that matters and using caliber as an excuse for not stopping the bad guy is a cop out. The usual armchair ninjas claiming that they will shoot the perp in the face from 30 feet in the dark under stress which they magically won't succumb to.


So I post this:





So Dipshit-in-Chief posts this in response:





Sigh....





And yes, I responded. I shouldn't have, but I did...
You do this to yourself to help out people like me.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:14 AM   #9
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Facts are anathema to any Internet conversation
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:27 PM   #10
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It might not seem worth it but there are always people out there who lurk and will learn from your information. I'm one of those people. When I first got into firearms I believed in 'stopping power' and .45's, etc. Thanks to people like you I've come to recognize the importance of placement, ballistics, terminal ballistics, etc.

Don't ever think posting good information is a waste of time. Someone somewhere is learning!

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Old 03-26-2013, 03:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by dfjaws View Post
It might not seem worth it but there are always people out there who lurk and will learn from your information. I'm one of those people. When I first got into firearms I believed in 'stopping power' and .45's, etc. Thanks to people like you I've come to recognize the importance of placement, ballistics, terminal ballistics, etc.

Don't ever think posting good information is a waste of time. Someone somewhere is learning!

agreed
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfjaws View Post
It might not seem worth it but there are always people out there who lurk and will learn from your information. I'm one of those people. When I first got into firearms I believed in 'stopping power' and .45's, etc. Thanks to people like you I've come to recognize the importance of placement, ballistics, terminal ballistics, etc.

Don't ever think posting good information is a waste of time. Someone somewhere is learning!

2nd
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