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Old 05-02-2013, 07:38 PM   #1
Act of God
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Bored: How would we be arguing about immigration if sides were reversed?

OK, I sit in a lot of traffic. My mind wanders. If all Hispanics were religious social conservatives and were a lock to be GOP voters how do you think our conversations would be going here about it? Naturally a lot of the arguments would be similar, but maybe phrased or argued a bit different.

Pro
I think the GOP people would be saying that these are heroes that would do anything to be Americans and that the only reason they aren't citizens is "big government" holding up the process.

They would talk about fleeing tyranny and how they are just like the original Americans that left Europe.

I think they would argue that more citizens = more tax dollars which would help the deficit and fund the programs that the Democrats cherish

Con
I think the Liberals would be saying that mass immigration would be a detriment to blacks and other minorities that have higher rates of unemployment.

I think they would use Alinksy Rule #4 (they are kind of doing that now too) and say that this is a Nation of Laws and hold the GOP feet to the fire about enforcing the law.

I think they would also throw the terrorism thing in to also hold their feet to the fire, so many undocumented people in the Country is a risk..and the GOP is supposed to care about that.




I had some more, but I couldn't remember it all. Anyway, this is just for fun so let's play nice.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:46 PM   #2
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Listening to the news this morning I heard that the Hispanics crossing the border are down over recent years... Things are better in Mexico that they used to be apparently...
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:23 AM   #3
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:33 AM   #4
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But the stranger that dwells with you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God (Leviticus 19:34 - American King James Version)
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:42 AM   #5
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Makes no sense. I appreciate what you're trying to do, though.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:52 AM   #6
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Makes no sense...
I agree. So I just posted something sort of related but not really.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:52 AM   #7
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Very interesting topic.

I think it does make sense and you are ignoring the obvious- Democrats have a vested interest in immigration as most minorities vote left of center.

If I understand what AOG is saying is that both sides are full of s h I t and would have drastically different "values" depending on where the votes are coming from.


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Makes no sense. I appreciate what you're trying to do, though.
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:14 AM   #8
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Very interesting topic.

I think it does make sense and you are ignoring the obvious- Democrats have a vested interest in immigration as most minorities vote left of center.
But many immigrants from South of the Boarder are very religious. How is it that Republicans haven't been able to capitalize on that?
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:53 AM   #9
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But many immigrants from South of the Boarder are very religious. How is it that Republicans haven't been able to capitalize on that?
We should all go join some political forum and take on the personalities of the polar opposite of our political beliefs
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:50 AM   #10
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But many immigrants from South of the Boarder are very religious. How is it that Republicans haven't been able to capitalize on that?
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:53 AM   #11
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Big business (especially big ag) has a vested interest in keeping the status quo because it allows them to have a massive underclass of people who are, essentially, indentured servants.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:05 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
OK, I sit in a lot of traffic. My mind wanders. If all Hispanics were religious social conservatives and were a lock to be GOP voters how do you think our conversations would be going here about it? Naturally a lot of the arguments would be similar, but maybe phrased or argued a bit different.

Pro
I think the GOP people would be saying that these are heroes that would do anything to be Americans and that the only reason they aren't citizens is "big government" holding up the process.

They would talk about fleeing tyranny and how they are just like the original Americans that left Europe.

I think they would argue that more citizens = more tax dollars which would help the deficit and fund the programs that the Democrats cherish

Con
I think the Liberals would be saying that mass immigration would be a detriment to blacks and other minorities that have higher rates of unemployment.

I think they would use Alinksy Rule #4 (they are kind of doing that now too) and say that this is a Nation of Laws and hold the GOP feet to the fire about enforcing the law.

I think they would also throw the terrorism thing in to also hold their feet to the fire, so many undocumented people in the Country is a risk..and the GOP is supposed to care about that.




I had some more, but I couldn't remember it all. Anyway, this is just for fun so let's play nice.
Well you could go back to the 1986 Amnesty Act. You first two "Pro" points a pretty on-point. The more tax revenue wasn't a big "Pro" argument. It was more a "these are hard working people who want the american dream and should be given the opportunity"

On the "Con" side, you have to remember that a number of unions, most notably SEIU, were against it. The Number 1 arg against was "These people are taking jobs from hard working Americans." So it wasn't quite the unemployment rate arg, but, in the vicinity.

Your third point was an "against" argument but was raised more often by isolationist conservatives. Although the against it in that case was more based on the campaign idea Regan put up in 79 about having open borders between the US, Canada, & Mexico. (Needless to say that didn't last very long. But, some viewed it as hubris of a 2nd term POTUS with nothing to lose looking to help his legacy.)

Also, on the "Pro" side, although not blatantly political in their support, were a fair number of conservative churches, including many Catholic churches. Their numbers (or at least attendance numbers and donations) had been dropping fairly dramatically over the last decade. How much of their "Pro" support was based on belief and how much on money was a serious topic of debate. Recall that this was before the Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart scandals and during the crest of televangelists who were raking in big sums of cash.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:06 AM   #13
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Big business (especially big ag) has a vested interest in keeping the status quo because it allows them to have a massive underclass of people who are, essentially, indentured servants.
We may think of it that way, and you are probably right, but it is apparently still better than living in Mexico (or any Central American country). If they were basically slaves they wouldn't voluntarily come.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:16 AM   #14
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We may think of it that way, and you are probably right, but it is apparently still better than living in Mexico (or any Central American country). If they were basically slaves they wouldn't voluntarily come.
It's a win for everyone!
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:29 PM   #15
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And if Republican votes were weighted 8% more than Democratic votes, Mitt Romney would be President. It's useless to think what the world would be like if things were completely different. Things are the way they are for a very complex set of reasons, and if you don't know why Hispanics (or minorities in general) don't vote Republican then you've got a huge blind spot as far as empathy goes.

The fact of the matter is that there already exists a great deal of tension between the Hispanic/Latino and black voting blocs within the Democratic Party. But the reason why they've been able to smooth out discord is because the Republicans refuse to capitalize on the opening for fear of alienating a significant base within their own constituencies. That seems to be changing precisely because the GOP realizes that they can no longer rely on rural and suburban white voters to win the general election.

Latinos and blacks would rather have a seat at a contentious table than to be relegated as an insignificant prop/novelty within a party that harbors various strains of virulent xenophobia and racism. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the Democratic Party, but the elites of the Democratic Party are much better at policing those attitudes than the elites of the Republican Party are. Second fiddle is better than being a toy. And that's why the Dems can count on both the blacks and Latinos to deliver for them come election day. The sooner people like you realize that, the sooner the GOP can get back to winning the White House.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:02 PM   #16
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People like me? I'm not a rebublican nor do I vote republican you pickle sniffer
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:55 PM   #17
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Makes no sense. I appreciate what you're trying to do, though.
Your 401k article you posted the other day makes no sense. I appreciate the effort though. For that I reward you an A+
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