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Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Gun Talk

Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:25 PM   #21
Reedo302
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Originally Posted by Redline View Post
Great info, good write up.

Question about that last part where hydrostatic shock and the .45 were mentioned. From what i understand doesnt a higher velocity 9mm produce the same if not more hydrostatic shock and a greater temporary tissue cavity/expansion on entry compared to the bigger slower .45? The .45 leaves a bigger permanent cavity but wont the greater inital expansion cause more damage throughout the body?
I didn't see this post until now. Sorry.
Basically, the write-up was written back when I still subscribed to the Army Research Labratory (ARL) testing process, which stresses kinetic energy (KE) deposit as a major factor above all else.
When I learned more, I learned that the opposing method (that stresses that KE deposit is not a factor with handgun ammunition) is more accurate. The opposing method is used by the FBI, IWBA, LAPD, CHP, Crane/NSWC, Army Wound Ballistic Research lab, the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, USSOCOM, USMC, and several other agencies, as well as major manufactures like ATK (Federal/Speer), Winchester, Remington and Hornady, etc. This process stresses penetration depth and permanent crush cavity as the only effective wounding factors. This process more closely mimics real world results based on testing done by various groups, particularly the IWBA and FBI BRF using data from officer-involved shootings and so forth.
If I could edit the initial post, I would have done so.

To answer your question, the biggest contributing factor to pistol round lethality is penetration. Expansion is a relative figure, as it varies greatly by bullet design. A 9mm 147gr Federal HST will expand wider than a .45ACP 185gr Hornady FTX. If you compare 9mm 147gr Speer GDHP to it's .45ACP 230gr counterpart, the 147gr expands to .660" diameter in bare gelatin, while the 230gr expands to .711". That's a difference of .051". Not really something that's going to make much of a difference at all. Now, if you look at the Federal HST, the 147gr expands to .850" and the 230gr expands to .980". That's .130" difference. Still not a major difference in the long run. However, there is a .320" difference between the 147gr GDHP and 230gr, so that's a somewhat significant difference. But go back to the 147gr HST compared to the 230gr GDHP, and the 9mm is .139" larger. Point being, it's more about bullet selection than the actual caliber.
As long as you have a round that will penetrate between 12-18" in bare gelatin, as well as through a couple intermediate barriers, you're good. The three tests that have the most applicability are bare gelatin, heavy clothing (intermediate barrier) and auto glass (hard barrier) tests.
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Last edited by Reedo302; 05-29-2013 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:02 AM   #22
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Just finished reading the original post! Jeez, that was a lot (and all very helpful!) I have the other Reedo302-threads bookmarked for reading at a later date.



Although, I still can't get a grip on how bullets are categorized/named .357, .38, 40mm, 9mm, 9x??mm, 10mm, .45....then I see ##ACP, etc. etc.

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Old 06-21-2013, 10:22 AM   #23
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Sigh, if only prices were still like that. $13/50 of 9mm would be :drool; right about now.
Paid $15/50 for 9mm at Cabelas last weekend....plus they actually had a sh!t load sitting on the shelf (Limit 5 boxes per customer)

Close enough
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Old 06-22-2013, 05:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by GunsBehindBars View Post

Although, I still can't get a grip on how bullets are categorized/named .357, .38, 40mm, 9mm, 9x??mm, 10mm, .45....then I see ##ACP, etc. etc.
This you just pick up as you go.
.38 - denotes that it is 0.38" diameter, though this is sometimes an approximation
.357 and .38 are actually the same diameter, but the .357 magnum has a longer casing, which is why you can shoot a .38special out of a .357mag, but can't shoot a .357 out of a .38.
9mm is the diameter of the bullet in metric, which is 0.355" in standard
.357sig is a .40S&W case that is necked-down to hold a smaller 9mm bullet
9x19 denotes a 9mm bullet that has a casing length of 19mm
10mm is a 10mm or 0.400" diameter bullet
.40S&W is a 10mm or 0.400" diameter bullet on a shorter casing
The "S&W" on .40S&W denotes that S&W developed the cartridge
The "Sig" on .357sig denotes that Sig Sauer developed the cartridge
The "ACP" that you see on .45ACP, .380ACP or others refers to Automatic Colt Pistol
9mm is the common name for the load that is also known as the 9x19mm, 9mm Luger, 9mm Para, 9mm Parabellum
.380ACP is also known as 9x17, 9mm short, or 9mm Kurz
9mm Makarov is 9x18mm
.38Super is 9x23mm, .38Super Auto, .38Super ACP
5.7x28mmFN denotes a 5.7mm bullet in a 28mm long casing that was developed by FN
4.6x30mmHK denotes a 4.6mm bullet in a 30mm long casing that was developed by HK
etc. etc.
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:17 AM   #25
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Great post.

I would also just add my small list:

1. Research gun before you buy. (Check for reliability and issues/faults and upgrades if you are interested)
2. Check local ammo availability before you buy (If you get a gun with a unusual round)
3. Shoot gun at range before you buy. (Rent or borrow one...make sure it works for you or a waste of money)
4. Check online price vs local price and before you buy. (Lots of great deals online...but factor in FFL fees.)
5. Just because the gun costs alot....does not mean it is great. (This goes for handguns and long guns)

Cheap guns for dummies that work...best bang for the buck:

Handgun: Glock (Pick your flavor)
Rifle AR Platform: DPMS AR or S&W M&P AR Sport (Off the shelf good bang for the buck)
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Last edited by carcus; 11-04-2013 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:30 AM   #26
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Ammo is a HUGE factor in pistol selection. As an example, my agency was considering switching to the Gen4 Glock 17, which is 9mm. We were using the Gen3 G22, which is .40S&W. This was in early January 2013. This was just after the Sandy Hook shooting, so I knew that getting 9mm ammo was not going to happen. .40S&W is a better auto glass round, so I saw no reason to make the switch outright. However, 9mm would have been a lot better for long term costs, reliability of the pistol and so forth. We opted to stay with .40 and get the Gen4 G22, which was mainly because of the ammo. We got the first round of pistols in late Jan 2013. As it stands right now, Federal Tactical is backordered until at least October 2014 on bulk duty ammunition. If I hadn't checked on the ammo, we would have been up shitcreek without a paddle for ammo for close to two years.
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