E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning

Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-10-2013, 07:05 AM   #81
wanganstyle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern California; SF BAY
Posts: 232
My Ride: 1998 M3 / 2002 325i
Re: so if could get a LSD for under $1000...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrodeezyak View Post
I'd be in!

Been looking to swap out to a higher ratio and would love to get an lsd at that price

Sent from my SCH-I535 using BimmerApp mobile app
If one has been considering a quaife or wavetrac install (and has the overall budget for one including labor for install) then the billet cnc Wangan diff would provide a clutch type option at slightly lower (not much lower) cost to the current gear type units.

Wheel to wheel Track racers and those after lap times still prefer clutch type lsd units; they are more efficient for lap time regardless of the number of cool patents in the design.

Budget a little under 2k total after install labor/core/misc as the billet LSD alone is a hair over 1k.

If one is dreaming of the cost subject in this thread......OBX China has not made any china communist gear diffs for e46 non m yet.

To get a "lsd" for 1k total one would need OBX "quality" or a Phantom grip "lsd". Welding the open diff to solid would actually be more reliable than installation of a communist chunk.


Sent from my GT-N7100 using BimmerApp mobile app
__________________

LSD dreamers thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14989087
WSG Billet CNC LSD production Development
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...pdate-backdate
S54B32+E36 1997 M3 Sedan+DTA S100 alpha N
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1437471

Last edited by wanganstyle; 07-10-2013 at 07:08 AM.
wanganstyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 08:36 AM   #82
jared_wiesner
All Natural
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 797
My Ride: 1999 328i (M54b30)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanganstyle View Post
If one has been considering a quaife or wavetrac install (and has the overall budget for one including labor for install) then the billet cnc Wangan diff would provide a clutch type option at slightly lower (not much lower) cost to the current gear type units.

Wheel to wheel Track racers and those after lap times still prefer clutch type lsd units; they are more efficient for lap time regardless of the number of cool patents in the design.

Budget a little under 2k total after install labor/core/misc as the billet LSD alone is a hair over 1k.

If one is dreaming of the cost subject in this thread......OBX China has not made any china communist gear diffs for e46 non m yet.

To get a "lsd" for 1k total one would need OBX "quality" or a Phantom grip "lsd". Welding the open diff to solid would actually be more reliable than installation of a communist chunk.


Sent from my GT-N7100 using BimmerApp mobile app
If your units get released at the price of the wavetrac then I will be in.
__________________
jared_wiesner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2013, 06:22 AM   #83
peytonracer4
:D
 
peytonracer4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Valparaiso, IN
Posts: 6,689
My Ride: '00 328i
so if could get a LSD for under $1000...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanganstyle View Post
I guess nobody posting was really serious about traction.
I'm still interested. I just don't understand exactly what you're offering, if you're actually offering it yet, and what the exact price is.
Is it in progress? Are you actually putting these up for sale?
__________________
choose to click or forever hold your peace ;)
peytonracer4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2013, 03:15 PM   #84
willsbma
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: north babylon NY
Posts: 2,531
My Ride: 99 323i
Maybe a retrofit kit that just has the guts to fit in the original diff?
__________________
Matte Black Kidney Grilles | Smoked Tails & Corners | Mtech II Bumper | Hotchkis Springs | ACS Roof Spoiler | M3 Spoiler | 20% Tint
WTB: Black sun visors & grab handles - PM ME!

I have P.A. Soft and a 20-pin adapter. Only used it a few times but pm me if you need anything coded!
willsbma is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2013, 02:06 PM   #85
wanganstyle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern California; SF BAY
Posts: 232
My Ride: 1998 M3 / 2002 325i
Quote:
Originally Posted by peytonracer4 View Post
I'm still interested. I just don't understand exactly what you're offering, if you're actually offering it yet, and what the exact price is.
Is it in progress? Are you actually putting these up for sale?
Quote:
Originally Posted by willsbma View Post
Maybe a retrofit kit that just has the guts to fit in the original diff?
All NEW LSD units are sold the same way; google search (Os giken, Quaife, Carbonetics, Kaaz, Drexler, Wavetrack)

This is my original Production Billet LSD Differential; A professional diff builder can remove the Original Open unit and directly install this LSD in its place.
This unit geometry/compatibility is for BMW 188K gearsets (e46 non-m) in (3.15->4.10 ratios only, does not fit 2.93 or 3.07)

As this is a NEW CNC BILLET unit it does cost MORE (but not much) than 1k.
Bearings are not included either - BMW does not sell them and no bearing supplier can purchase them either. You must re-use your E46 side axel bearings and Races.

if you are in the SF bay area come view it in person; I cut one in half for those who want to see how everything fits inside.



Internal stack: Basic 25% locking 2 clutch disc (Porsche high temp Organic+proprietary steel discs) in the most time proven BMW Motorsports OEM setting
__________________

LSD dreamers thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14989087
WSG Billet CNC LSD production Development
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...pdate-backdate
S54B32+E36 1997 M3 Sedan+DTA S100 alpha N
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1437471

Last edited by wanganstyle; 07-14-2013 at 02:20 PM.
wanganstyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2013, 01:12 AM   #86
SK330ci
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Everywhere USA
Posts: 520
My Ride: 02 330ci w/ 3 Pedals
OK, so i have a few thoughts on this LSD thing.

What "wanganstyle" is proposing is good all in all, but i have a few things i'd like to bring up that don't seem to be getting mentioned. First i want to say that i really do like what wanganstyle is offering, it certainly has its place in the market. There are many different types and formulas that make up a modern LSD, the unit wanganstyle is offering (in its base form) is a two clutch pack LSD, as opposed to a gear type like the Quaife. Unless I'm wrong, and correct me if i am, i haven't seen any mention of the upkeep and wear and tear associated with a clutch type LSD. Simply put, the clutch type LSD needs to be cared for vs the gear type (Quaife) that is installed and forgotten about. They're advantages and disadvantages to both types, but i seem to be Only hearing about the advantages.

With the clutch type LSD, the user needs to do periodic maintenance, Oil changes on the LSD. Then there is the issue of Clutch Pack replacement when they burn out, the diff would need to be removed and disassembled by a qualified mechanic to have the new clutch pack installed. I will not make a "guess" at how far one will get before the clutch pack wears out, but it will happen at some point. On the other hand a gear type unit like the Quaife will not wear out. Most people agree (i use the term "most" loosely) that a street driven car does best with a gear type LSD. On the other hand, if i tracked my car Constantly (a lot - all the time) i would consider a clutch type LSD instead. And if you were tracking all the time, you would want a substantially higher end LSD than the one being offered, the LSD being offered is a "base" unit.

For me it's like this
A) Street Driven = Gear Type LSD
B) Track Driven = Clutch Type LSD

Food for thought E46F members.


Street driven 330 using a LSD.
__________________

BIMMERS FOR EVER !
SK330ci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2013, 05:55 AM   #87
SoloII///M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 533
My Ride: Many
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanganstyle View Post
If one has been considering a quaife or wavetrac install (and has the overall budget for one including labor for install) then the billet cnc Wangan diff would provide a clutch type option at slightly lower (not much lower) cost to the current gear type units.

Wheel to wheel Track racers and those after lap times still prefer clutch type lsd units; they are more efficient for lap time regardless of the number of cool patents in the design.

Budget a little under 2k total after install labor/core/misc as the billet LSD alone is a hair over 1k.

If one is dreaming of the cost subject in this thread......OBX China has not made any china communist gear diffs for e46 non m yet.

To get a "lsd" for 1k total one would need OBX "quality" or a Phantom grip "lsd". Welding the open diff to solid would actually be more reliable than installation of a communist chunk.


Sent from my GT-N7100 using BimmerApp mobile app
This is all true. You get what you pay for, which is why the Giken is $1800 (edit: at cost).

Gear type diffs are fine for the street where the inside tire never gets unloaded. When making quick transitional turns in autocross or jumping curbs at the track etc they don't work as well.

Count me in for one of these when released. I need a backup diff to carry to events in the event ours blows up.
__________________
John V
'02 330Ci - Megasquirt 3 tuned by PFTuning.com, M50 manifold, Kromer Kraft headers, Motons, widebody, etc.
SoloII///M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2013, 10:04 AM   #88
wanganstyle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern California; SF BAY
Posts: 232
My Ride: 1998 M3 / 2002 325i
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK330ci View Post
For me it's like this
A) Street Driven = Gear Type LSD
B) Track Driven = Clutch Type LSD
Statistically speaking:

BMW factory OEM = clutch type LSD
This bottom of the line Basic offering @ 25% lockup is for general use;

A competitive NASA GTS racer can podium on a stock BMW OEM 25% LSD; grandma can also drive the same LSD to the grocery store.
(E30/E36 M3 and 7 series/ 5 series automatic all use the same 2 clutch pack 25% internal setting)

For jap cars and others perhaps gear units are popular; Clutch LSD units are also not cheap to produce; if they were cheaper to manufacture then OBX would make a clutch LSD -
OBX is famous for a communist bottom of the market price Gear-type unit for almost any Japanese car.


_______________________

I cut one unit in half to show the actual internals for those curious:

There are 2x thick 4.0mm spacers installed (one each end); These are dead spacers for BMW factory //M Grandma approved spec LSD configuration; If money is not scarce one can order it configured however desired.


BMW OEM LSD sold and delivered to consumers around the world from 1960-1999:

~95% clutch type (all chassis from 1960-1999)
~5% gear type (1 submodel of 1 chassis from 1996-2003)

BMW has fitted only 1 chassis with a GEAR TYPE LSD from the factory (e36/7 Z3 1996-2003), it seems that BMW does not enjoy Gear type LSD much; as the E36/7 Z3 was the last car that had an LSD from the factory (for non-m models).


Bmw has fitted almost ALL of chassis with a CLUTCH type LSD that is designed from 0 mile new to last ~ 100k miles: from 1960's-1999. If one decided to melt the internals sooner than 100K with gratuitous burnouts/abuse it was probably enjoyable to you-

Perhaps ask friends with older M cars and see if they have any complaints about the OEM LSD?
__________________

LSD dreamers thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14989087
WSG Billet CNC LSD production Development
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...pdate-backdate
S54B32+E36 1997 M3 Sedan+DTA S100 alpha N
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1437471

Last edited by wanganstyle; 07-15-2013 at 10:38 AM.
wanganstyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 01:14 PM   #89
katu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 574
My Ride: '04 330ci ZHP
Where in the Bay Area are you? Santa Rosa here.
__________________
katu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 01:53 AM   #90
secono330ci
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: NJ>>>>FL
Posts: 2,998
My Ride: 04' 330ci & 99' 540i
Clutch type ftw. My OS Giken is currently being installed by Lutz Performance.
secono330ci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 10:38 AM   #91
wanganstyle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern California; SF BAY
Posts: 232
My Ride: 1998 M3 / 2002 325i
Quote:
Originally Posted by secono330ci View Post
Clutch type ftw. My OS Giken is currently being installed by Lutz Performance.
OSG and pro install FTW!

its very advised to take this to an installer who as done this before as the bearings, races, spacer shims are all BMW factory only (not sold ever)
__________________

LSD dreamers thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14989087
WSG Billet CNC LSD production Development
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...pdate-backdate
S54B32+E36 1997 M3 Sedan+DTA S100 alpha N
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1437471
wanganstyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 01:50 PM   #92
SK330ci
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Everywhere USA
Posts: 520
My Ride: 02 330ci w/ 3 Pedals
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanganstyle View Post
OSG and pro install FTW!

its very advised to take this to an installer who as done this before as the bearings, races, spacer shims are all BMW factory only (not sold ever)

The last time I checked with "Dan" at Diffsonline (about 2 years ago) he sold the diff bearings, but they're Not cheap......$300.

So it's really best to Carefully pull those bearings off, thus no need for replacements.
__________________

BIMMERS FOR EVER !
SK330ci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 08:48 PM   #93
SoloII///M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 533
My Ride: Many
Dan sells good bearings he gets off of old differentials.

I keep a stash of them around here for exactly that purpose.
__________________
John V
'02 330Ci - Megasquirt 3 tuned by PFTuning.com, M50 manifold, Kromer Kraft headers, Motons, widebody, etc.
SoloII///M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 11:15 PM   #94
wanganstyle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern California; SF BAY
Posts: 232
My Ride: 1998 M3 / 2002 325i
Re: so if could get a LSD for under $1000...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SK330ci View Post
The last time I checked with "Dan" at Diffsonline (about 2 years ago) he sold the diff bearings, but they're Not cheap......$300.

So it's really best to Carefully pull those bearings off, thus no need for replacements.
A e36 or e30 side bearing with race at pelican parts is less than $50 new in comparison. The 188k e46+ axel bearings with giant races are really designed to hinder the rebuilding/reconfigure process.

In 2007+ cars (z4++) the bearings changed to plastic cages with ball bearings instead of tapered roller bearings......evil bmw.....

Sent from my GT-N7100 using BimmerApp mobile app
__________________

LSD dreamers thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14989087
WSG Billet CNC LSD production Development
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...pdate-backdate
S54B32+E36 1997 M3 Sedan+DTA S100 alpha N
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1437471
wanganstyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 11:56 PM   #95
secono330ci
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: NJ>>>>FL
Posts: 2,998
My Ride: 04' 330ci & 99' 540i
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanganstyle View Post
OSG and pro install FTW!

its very advised to take this to an installer who as done this before as the bearings, races, spacer shims are all BMW factory only (not sold ever)
Yup! I was thinking so many times to contact you, but now being recently moved, I don't have time to take the diff out, ship it, etc..
secono330ci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 11:52 AM   #96
wanganstyle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern California; SF BAY
Posts: 232
My Ride: 1998 M3 / 2002 325i
Re: so if could get a LSD for under $1000...

Quote:
Originally Posted by secono330ci View Post
Yup! I was thinking so many times to contact you, but now being recently moved, I don't have time to take the diff out, ship it, etc..
Local is best for these type of install if avail. Thats why I went to production units; it allows a local professional installer to take care of clients in person. Setting of gear mesh is Ideally done to the exact client needs.

Professional install is ideal for anything critical in the driveline. The CNC billet unit will install with absolutely ZERO grinding or machine work to case; It is designed for Professional installation.



Shim setting needs to be dialed in by the builder before internals are installed; the BMW 188k design incorporates the race securing mechanism with the pre-load of the side bearings.
Top cap of left side must be fastened to 32lb-ft AFTER fitting to the case.

Internals must also be kept in order or installed from the right portal.


To compare even an OS giken e46-non-m LSD unit needs grinding to install....Kaaz is the only one that seems to not need it but Kaaz is for competitive race use only - not street use unless your pockets are very deep for re-configuration.

Notice beautifully milled clearance by local bay area master machinist.


__________________

LSD dreamers thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14989087
WSG Billet CNC LSD production Development
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...pdate-backdate
S54B32+E36 1997 M3 Sedan+DTA S100 alpha N
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1437471

Last edited by wanganstyle; 07-24-2013 at 12:08 PM.
wanganstyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 09:01 AM   #97
SoloII///M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 533
My Ride: Many
It should be a piece of cake for a diff builder to set one of these up (or any aftermarket diff). The real difficulty is having the right shims (those big circlips) on hand, and having a tool that can remove and install them. You also need a torque wrench that reads in the low inch-pounds range and has a dial to set the preload.

I have a pile of shims on hand and even so I had to have a pair of them surface ground to get the correct gear engagement when I switched to 3.23s.
__________________
John V
'02 330Ci - Megasquirt 3 tuned by PFTuning.com, M50 manifold, Kromer Kraft headers, Motons, widebody, etc.
SoloII///M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 12:05 PM   #98
wanganstyle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern California; SF BAY
Posts: 232
My Ride: 1998 M3 / 2002 325i
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloII///M View Post
It should be a piece of cake for a diff builder to set one of these up (or any aftermarket diff). The real difficulty is having the right shims (those big circlips) on hand, and having a tool that can remove and install them. You also need a torque wrench that reads in the low inch-pounds range and has a dial to set the preload.

I have a pile of shims on hand and even so I had to have a pair of them surface ground to get the correct gear engagement when I switched to 3.23s.
Spoken from prior race car(s) experience - I'm assuming the e46 is NOT your first race car ....... Not your first trip to the differential circus.

the tools are required for setup!!
giant circlip tool Matco or snap on will have - massive snap ring pliers.

Precision surface grinding specialty shop you will need for adjustments as the factory shims are only avail in a very limited range even if you have them all.

Bearings/races/shim C clips are valuable items and shared with e39 528i/525/530 as well.
__________________

LSD dreamers thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14989087
WSG Billet CNC LSD production Development
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...pdate-backdate
S54B32+E36 1997 M3 Sedan+DTA S100 alpha N
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1437471

Last edited by wanganstyle; 07-26-2013 at 12:06 PM.
wanganstyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2013, 03:12 PM   #99
SoloII///M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 533
My Ride: Many
Been there done that... and now I understand why diffsonline.com is not a cheap service. It takes a long time to get it right, even if you've done it a bunch of times.

John
__________________
John V
'02 330Ci - Megasquirt 3 tuned by PFTuning.com, M50 manifold, Kromer Kraft headers, Motons, widebody, etc.
SoloII///M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 04:07 PM   #100
wanganstyle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern California; SF BAY
Posts: 232
My Ride: 1998 M3 / 2002 325i
for those that are in the SouthEast states I sent a demo unit to Markert Motorworks (Lawrenceville GA)- they fit my billet LSD and built a 3,46 diff for demo use in a 330 ZHP to show it off.

They can do any internal spec desired as the billet capsule is designed to fit 4 clutch discs for high / custom lockup and install the built unit in house-
__________________

LSD dreamers thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14989087
WSG Billet CNC LSD production Development
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...pdate-backdate
S54B32+E36 1997 M3 Sedan+DTA S100 alpha N
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1437471

Last edited by wanganstyle; 08-07-2013 at 04:11 PM.
wanganstyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is OFF





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use