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Old 08-20-2013, 07:19 PM   #41
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3. This is a good thing and all passes the litmus test of constitutional and moral. Because you don't understand the architecture of what was put in place, doesn't mean its an assault on your rights.
I don't agree. To say that it is a good thing implies that it is a necessary thing. It isn't. It might be a useful thing, but, that depends on how much privacy one is willing to exchange for security be that real or simply imagined.
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:46 PM   #42
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Because not enough liberal arts education in public schools and universities.
So you going to blame the federal government for that?
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:27 PM   #43
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Because not enough liberal arts education in public schools and universities.
The amount of awareness of what is going on is off the charts right now compared to what we actually knew in the past.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:43 AM   #44
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What about the CIA spying on private American citizens like Noam Chomsky?
This is completely unrelated. Also, he was planning a trip to Hanoi, Vietnam DURING the war. That's a red flag and worth CIA/NSA follow up.

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I don't agree. To say that it is a good thing implies that it is a necessary thing. It isn't. It might be a useful thing, but, that depends on how much privacy one is willing to exchange for security be that real or simply imagined.
And again, in no way are we giving up any privacy. Data is aggregated to one location... not looked at or analyzed unless a warrant is issued.

Some of you want so badly to be spited by your government.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:12 AM   #45
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And again, in no way are we giving up any privacy. Data is aggregated to one location... not looked at or analyzed unless a warrant is issued.
Sorry, it is absolutely not correct to say we are not giving up any privacy. You may have the opinion that the amount of privacy we have already given up is acceptable, and that opinion is what is being debated. Also open for debate is the extent of what we don't know about - do you really think these latest news stories have gotten to the "bottom" of this? I for one am quite certain there is a lot more that we don't know about.

I don't know your political leaning, but I expect you, like most people including me, are a lot more concerned about mis-use of this information when your preferred party is not in power. But I will go further and state that I am concerned regardless of who is in power, because I understand that the mentality of elected and career bureaucrats is inherently different than that of ordinary citizens going about their daily lives. In Washington, D.C., there isn't much daylight between Democrats and Republicans on these matters.

The IRS scandal is a perfect example of how that mindset plays out. I can only imagine how some of you would be screaming if the same circumstances occurred during a Republican administration. And guess what - you would be right!
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:42 AM   #46
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Sorry, it is absolutely not correct to say we are not giving up any privacy. You may have the opinion that the amount of privacy we have already given up is acceptable, and that opinion is what is being debated. Also open for debate is the extent of what we don't know about - do you really think these latest news stories have gotten to the "bottom" of this? I for one am quite certain there is a lot more that we don't know about.

I don't know your political leaning, but I expect you, like most people including me, are a lot more concerned about mis-use of this information when your preferred party is not in power. But I will go further and state that I am concerned regardless of who is in power, because I understand that the mentality of elected and career bureaucrats is inherently different than that of ordinary citizens going about their daily lives. In Washington, D.C., there isn't much daylight between Democrats and Republicans on these matters.

The IRS scandal is a perfect example of how that mindset plays out. I can only imagine how some of you would be screaming if the same circumstances occurred during a Republican administration. And guess what - you would be right!
Explain in plain English how your rights are being infringed on though? What information is being viewed now that wasn't being viewed before?
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:03 PM   #47
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Explain in plain English how your rights are being infringed on though? What information is being viewed now that wasn't being viewed before?
Simple: the right to privacy is absolute. At the precise point the federal government obtains information about me without any Constitutionally-based reason, then my privacy has been infringed upon. There is no need for the government to actively mis-use that information. Got it?

And for the life of me, please explain why the fact that this may have been going on for awhile diminishes the inappropriateness or illegality?

And keep up with the latest news, please:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1002378
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:04 PM   #48
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:07 PM   #49
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And for the life of me, please explain why the fact that this may have been going on for awhile diminishes the inappropriateness or illegality?
It doesn't diminish either of those that you mentioned, but it sure does diminish ones credibility when they turn on the selective outrage switch NOW, as opposed to a long time ago.

**Not saying you, in particular, but there are plenty of people out there.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:11 PM   #50
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The amount of awareness of what is going on is off the charts right now compared to what we actually knew in the past.
The NSA's orders to scan "snail mail" have been around for 40 years. Were most people truly unaware or just didn't care?

Is it really awareness.
Folks didn't know the NSA existed?

They are the freakin NSA, what did people think they were doing?
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:17 PM   #51
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Simple: the right to privacy is absolute. At the precise point the federal government obtains information about me without any Constitutionally-based reason, then my privacy has been infringed upon. There is no need for the government to actively mis-use that information. Got it?

And for the life of me, please explain why the fact that this may have been going on for awhile diminishes the inappropriateness or illegality?

And keep up with the latest news, please:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1002378
When did the federal Government obtain your information? Still unclear about when that happened? Sure, they built the capability to do so. But without a writ, they won't be.

Enjoying CNN right now, they picked their words very carefully.


"NSA has ABILITY to monitor 75% of the internet." A means to monitor is separated from actively monitoring by constitutional law. That's where our privacy sits and is protected.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:28 PM   #52
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Simple: the right to privacy is absolute. At the precise point the federal government obtains information about me without any Constitutionally-based reason, then my privacy has been infringed upon. There is no need for the government to actively mis-use that information. Got it?

And for the life of me, please explain why the fact that this may have been going on for awhile diminishes the inappropriateness or illegality?

And keep up with the latest news, please:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1002378
The right to privacy is not absolute. If you say or post something in public, there is no assumption of privacy. Any data you send over it is, for all intent and purposes, public. It can be read by anybody on any network segment it travels from you to its destination. If you don't think you have consented to this, have you actually read you user agreement with your ISP?
Most email communication in particular is sent as clear text.

Why do encryption and secure protocols exist? Why were they developed? Why are they used by retailers, banks, etc?

Could it be because the net is fundamentally insecure?

And even then, if you capture encrypted data and can decrypt it, is that a violation of privacy, or is it that you sent a cypher message in public and somebody has the wherewithal to crack the cypher? I they do, have they violated your right to privacy by being better at cracking cyphers than you are at using them?

The net is a public place. Vendors. retailers, banks, etc may have led you believe that it is private. That does not make it so.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:33 PM   #53
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And again, in no way are we giving up any privacy. Data is aggregated to one location... not looked at or analyzed unless a warrant is issued.
But, the data is not collected and never processed in any manner. THey don't collect the data and not mine any of it.

So you can't say it is not analyzed in some manner. Since it is processed in some manner it is giving up some, albeit small, amount of privacy. Even if the data is processed in a pseudo-anonymized manner, the fact that it can later be deanonymized means that it was not truly anonymized in the first place.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:23 PM   #54
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It doesn't diminish either of those that you mentioned, but it sure does diminish ones credibility when they turn on the selective outrage switch NOW, as opposed to a long time ago.

**Not saying you, in particular, but there are plenty of people out there.
No disagreement. If Reagan was doing this (and he may have been, with carbon copy paper, carrier pigeons and curly faxes, no doubt), I would be telling all you cry babies to shut up. But with Obama in office, I am very concerned. Hopefully that acknowledgement at least gets my credibility back to par.

Just remember - credibility has to do with the person, but has nothing to do with the message. Hypocrisy is distracting in a debate, but it shouldn't prevent folks from understanding or even agreeing with others' points.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:49 PM   #55
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Are you joking? If you think we should all pay more in taxes to fund spying on every single person by flying drones and storing and duplicating internet data at some crazy federally backed server bunkers while also needing super computers to analyze that stored data I could not disagree more. Think about Youtube and how 100 hours of video is uploaded every minute and it's only increasing just like everything on the web worth anything. It is a huge waste of time and money to try to monitor everyone. I firmly oppose that mentality thinking we need to do it. I might change my mind if I could get a 175k a year job working 4 10 hour shifts per week at one of these server farms though
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:43 AM   #56
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Are you joking? If you think we should all pay more in taxes to fund spying on every single person by flying drones and storing and duplicating internet data at some crazy federally backed server bunkers while also needing super computers to analyze that stored data I could not disagree more. Think about Youtube and how 100 hours of video is uploaded every minute and it's only increasing just like everything on the web worth anything. It is a huge waste of time and money to try to monitor everyone. I firmly oppose that mentality thinking we need to do it. I might change my mind if I could get a 175k a year job working 4 10 hour shifts per week at one of these server farms though
And this is what I've begun to question. Server space is cheap these days but we are talking about massive data. I'm doubting that the NSA/DoD is actually duplicating the data. My guess is they have developed linkages to the external systems.
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Old 08-22-2013, 05:46 PM   #57
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Highend network attached storage equipment really isn't that cheap though, not cheap like the 1 TB drives for under $100 you can buy Bestbuy. Plus all the data needs to be readily available and not archived to make it easily searchable in a fast manner, and computers that can parse data at those amounts aren't cheap either not only in initial cost but also for cost charged for floating-point operations per second like IBM bills. Also we know the government is going to have contingency plans, so I would imagine they'd probably triplicate all that data,1 for a Production environment, 1 for a Development environment, and 1 for a warm offsite back up environment.

In my opinion, it's just too much money chasing a dream that can't be caught. The internets data is growing to fast to keep up...
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:00 PM   #58
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Highend network attached storage equipment really isn't that cheap though, not cheap like the 1 TB drives for under $100 you can buy Bestbuy. Plus all the data needs to be readily available and not archived to make it easily searchable in a fast manner, and computers that can parse data at those amounts aren't cheap either not only in initial cost but also for cost charged for floating-point operations per second like IBM bills. Also we know the government is going to have contingency plans, so I would imagine they'd probably triplicate all that data,1 for a Production environment, 1 for a Development environment, and 1 for a warm offsite back up environment.

In my opinion, it's just too much money chasing a dream that can't be caught. The internets data is growing to fast to keep up...
Who says you have to do this with NAS. Not for the vast majority. You could just as easily do this using large scale distributed computing.


Lets look at the problem and we will take the 640 terabytes per minute. (and that is global http://www.techspot.com/news/52011-o...ails-sent.html)

There isn't a single collection point. You break up the data collection by region. Say 16 regions. Now each region is only dealing with 40TB per minute. Each region then take that data and roughly stream it off to 4000 machines, each one of those machines only has to be able to process about 10GB of data per minute. Even if the system had to store and hour's worth of data to process through. That only requires a 600GB drive. (Ok, so you get a system with 4 1TB drives so you can spread the read/write perf across a few drive or mirror them if there was a drive failure. That is not much cost on a per system basis.)

Each system processes the data as a stream. Only that data which meets the electronic threshold of "interesting" then gets copied off to a NAS device in the region. But, that is what 1/1000th? 1/1000000th of the data. That data is then further analyzed and only if it is of "greater interest" does it get moved up to a central store, which might be tertiary.

There is no need to keep/store/archive the vast amount of this data. It just gets thrown away. You process the data as it flows through the system and only keep the very small amount of "interesting bits".
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:59 PM   #59
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The NSA's orders to scan "snail mail" have been around for 40 years. Were most people truly unaware or just didn't care?

Is it really awareness.
Folks didn't know the NSA existed?

They are the freakin NSA, what did people think they were doing?
Are you arguing that the NSA opened and looked at EVERY piece of snail mail back then? False, and impossible.
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