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///M3 Forum
The BMW E46 ///M3 is the M version E46 and puts out an amazing 333 HP and 262 lb-ft of torque at stock specs! There are an amazing amount of modifications for both the coupe and convertible models so read up and get started modifying your cars today!

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Old 09-19-2013, 12:57 PM   #41
Alex323Ci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSilk56 View Post
Let's cut through the B.S. with respect to the brakes. The CSL brakes are a huge upgrade over the standard US version M3 brakes. They have larger diameter rotors, larger calipers and pads, are of modular construction (rather than a single piece), and are cross-drilled.
I agree.
but to be fair the pads are the same size.
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CF CSL RACE LIP - NAVI - BMW PERF CF STRUT BAR - BMW GROUP N MNTS - GRUPPE M CF INTAKE - SUPERSPRINT - UUC SS BRKLINES, TRANS MNTS, RTABs - 4.10 M-SPORT DIFF
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:25 PM   #42
breadvanracing
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More than just pad size and swept/contact area affect braking/stopping power. Bigger rotors make a difference, braking effect is increased as the point of application moves away from the center of the wheel. Not only are you increasing your "leverage" on the brake rotor as you try to slow it down, but you are also sweeping a greater length of rotor per wheel revolution. Again, physics wins, as someone already mentioned.

I've driven both, neither of which are mine, the ZCP always surprises me with how instant the braking power is (I autocross and a friend has a ZCP (which I work on occasionally), many friends have regular M3s)...... almost to the point where I wouldn't want to DD a ZCP, the brakes are a little "sudden" around town. My butt-feel is that the ZCP is noticably better, stock versus stock.

Only disadvantage I see is cost of replacement, I'm not sure there are a lot of non-OEM replacement options for the ZCP brakes, but luckily, my friend has not had to deal with this yet, so I haven't researched.
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Old 09-21-2013, 05:23 PM   #43
Alex323Ci
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looks like we have shown this "95% cosmetic only" statement to not hold any weight. especially those about the upgraded brakes. all backed up by physics along with overwhelming reviews.
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OE CSL WHEELS - OE CSL BRAKES - OE AUTOFOLD MIRRORS - CSL TRUNK - CSL DIFFUSER - AA SPORT TUNE - AA PULLEYS - BILSTEIN PSS9s - AS 40% SSK
CF CSL RACE LIP - NAVI - BMW PERF CF STRUT BAR - BMW GROUP N MNTS - GRUPPE M CF INTAKE - SUPERSPRINT - UUC SS BRKLINES, TRANS MNTS, RTABs - 4.10 M-SPORT DIFF
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Old 09-21-2013, 07:11 PM   #44
GarlicBread911
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Originally Posted by Alex323Ci View Post
looks like we have shown this "95% cosmetic only" statement to not hold any weight. especially those about the upgraded brakes. all backed up by physics along with overwhelming reviews.

What overwhelming reviews?

The percentage is obviously arbitrary and is meant to imply that the package is mostly oriented towards cosmetics and "coolness" than actual performance improvements. There is no way to quantify the percentage of cosmetic improvements to performance improvements. As mentioned earlier in the thread, BMW releases this package for marketing purposes. If someone was truly interested in performance, it would be cheaper and result in better performance to buy a non-zcp and upgrade with the money saved.

While the brakes do technically improve performance, it's such an insignificant improvement that the main advantage of them is cosmetic. You get cool looking, bigger drilled rotors and the ability to say you have CSL brakes, even though your stopping distance hasn't measurably improved. Stock brakes are already enough to lock the wheels and engage ABS. If you're ever pushing the car hard enough to experience brake fade on stock brakes, you will with the ZCP brakes as well because the improvement is so marginal. Also, don't forget the drilled rotors are prone to cracking.

Brakes = cosmetic and some performance.
The wheels are cosmetic.
The steering wheel is cosmetic.
The steering rack does not improve performance, just feel. It's cool.
The M track mode does not improve the car's performance, but it is cool.
Exclusive pain option = cosmetics/cool
Exclusive trim option = cosmetics/cool.
The springs could be considered a performance improvement. Except they aren't really unique to the package as all M3s 05+ have the same springs.

Every part of the package is cool, and a couple provide marginal performance improvement. That's why I'd say the package is mostly cosmetic. If you can find objective data proving a significant improvement of performance of ZCP cars over standard cars, please provide a link. BMW never made any claims of increased performance. I would love to see a direct track comparison between a ZCP and non-ZCP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex323Ci View Post
i have read some of the threads these two guys posted their info from and you hear all (w/exception 1 or 2) replies to do with how the brakes are infact better.
even from track guys and driving instructors in all those threads in forums.

BIMMER magazine ROAD TEST and featured cover article of the M3-ZCP August 2005 and i quote,
"If the tires were somewhat dissapointing, the brakes were not.
These are the best brakes ever fitted to a US -spec BMW, plain and simple."


Then in a published review from 16 yr racing and BMW CCA high performance driving instructor at Infineon Raceway. When asked what his take was after 10 plus laps.
"First of all the brakes are fantastic". You could drive all day long on those brakes.."
Links? Did they directly compare the ZCP to a standard M3? What good is a test that doesn't compare results to a standard? Just because the brakes are "the best ever fitted to a US -spec BMW," doesn't mean they're significantly better than stock. I admit they are better, just by a tiny amount. Example: $1,000 is more than $999. While it's true, that $1 is not a significant increase and if much effort is required to get that extra dollar, it's not worth it.

My main point is this: Just because there is a performace improvement does not make it significant. Every one of the ZCP options is either cosmetically beneficial or just "cool." The competition package and its components are for people who want coolness. People who want performance would get more from buying a standard M3 and getting mods that significantlyimprove performance. So, while I concede some items increase performance, their main purpose is to make the car cooler.
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Old 09-22-2013, 03:47 AM   #45
hadokenny
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^^ I know I am super cool. No need to keep drilling it into my head

I like how you mention performance/dollar. I mean I agree with that statement. However, you know you can also buy a 325i and put the money you saved in aftermarket mods and make it faster than an M3 right? Just throwing it out there. I mean granted the 3 series won't be as "cool" as the M3, but who cares about that right?

Like I said before...people hate on what they don't have.

Last edited by hadokenny; 09-22-2013 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:15 AM   #46
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Better "just by a tiny amount"? Why can't you just admit that you were wrong about your assessment of the ZCP brake upgrade? Every upgrade made to go from the standard US version M3 brakes to the ZCP represents additional cooling capacity. Larger rotors mean that more surface area is exposed to the air. Aluminum hats to which the cast iron rotors are attached mean less heat soak and less heat retention at the center hub, which doesn't enjoy much cooling air flow. Cross drilling also aids in cooling the rotor, and in permitting hot gasses an avenue of escape. Stopping distances in a standard road test are important with respect to performance on the track and on the public roads, but for high speed driving (either road or track), the ability of your brakes to resist fade is paramount. Resistance to fade is a product of how quickly the rotor can dissipate heat. After all, that is the simple function of your brakes; to turn kinetic energy into heat energy and dissipate it. This is where the US version of the M3's brakes falls short, and this is what the ZCP package addresses.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #47
drocca
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Soooooo?

Before this became a male organ measuring contest over whether a ZCP is worth the extra money or not; did anyone answer how to tell if it is a ZCP or not?

Someone, although not in this thread, mentioned internet sites that will decipher/decode a VIN number; does this break it down like an American car with a whole list of three digit codes and "ZCP" will just be right there?

I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument over the merits/faults of the ZCP option and its owners and non-owners.

Didn't mean to stir the pot fellas, they're all E46 M3s and they all rock in their own way right? If nothing else, the ZCP option puts you in a bit of an exclusive club doesn't it? Always desireable in a vehicle purchase.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:05 PM   #48
hadokenny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drocca View Post
Before this became a male organ measuring contest over whether a ZCP is worth the extra money or not; did anyone answer how to tell if it is a ZCP or not?

Someone, although not in this thread, mentioned internet sites that will decipher/decode a VIN number; does this break it down like an American car with a whole list of three digit codes and "ZCP" will just be right there?

I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument over the merits/faults of the ZCP option and its owners and non-owners.

Didn't mean to stir the pot fellas, they're all E46 M3s and they all rock in their own way right? If nothing else, the ZCP option puts you in a bit of an exclusive club doesn't it? Always desireable in a vehicle purchase.
The vin decoder website will tell you what options came with the car with that specific VIN number. Great tool and very simple way to check if your car has zcp package or not along with other stuff like 6 disc cd player, cold weather package, etc.
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:30 PM   #49
Alex323Ci
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On the topic of the alcantara steering wheel being strictly cosmetic. Sure it is cool looking but saying because it's cool looking doesn't mean it's not a better choice performance wise. Between leather and Alcantara guess what kind of steering wheel material is used on majority of race cars? Yep the Alcantara type. Even the ALMS Z4 is fitted with it. Guess it's just because it's cool looking?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pg-vJgRCv_...40-highRes.jpg
http://www.autoscarshow.com/wp-conte...it-600x398.jpg
http://www.roadandtrack.com/cm/roada...te-c6-r-28.jpg
http://media.speedcafe.com/wp-conten...10/priaulx.jpg
http://autopixx.de/bilder/0NL1Th5S/b...erburgring.jpg

Another point not mentioned on the ZCP cars is that the front brake pads are not the same as other M3s. The material in the pads for the CSL/ZCP is different and better(cosmetic?).
If those people still grasping onto the thought the CSL/ZCP brakes are not better or don't resist fade better..please put your head back in the sand.
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OE CSL WHEELS - OE CSL BRAKES - OE AUTOFOLD MIRRORS - CSL TRUNK - CSL DIFFUSER - AA SPORT TUNE - AA PULLEYS - BILSTEIN PSS9s - AS 40% SSK
CF CSL RACE LIP - NAVI - BMW PERF CF STRUT BAR - BMW GROUP N MNTS - GRUPPE M CF INTAKE - SUPERSPRINT - UUC SS BRKLINES, TRANS MNTS, RTABs - 4.10 M-SPORT DIFF
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:33 PM   #50
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Congratulations on your large member and bumping a dead thread that more people might take notice of it.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=449052
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Last edited by Dan1983; 11-04-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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